Apologetics

Lessons learned from an atheist part 5

by Douglas Eckert
01/03/17
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Lessons learned from an atheist:

Ch. 12
Lesson 1

Ain't nobody as smug as someone who thinks that they have it all figured out. This applies to both Christians ( like myself) and atheists alike.

Lesson 2:
Even though many atheists have a problem with God's "morals", they don't seem to have any problem with their own "morals". It seems they never seem to ponder where this moral "sense" might come from.

Chadwick:
You've said nothing relevant to reality, except maybe recognizing the power of positive thinking. You don't understand your god? Well, then you can have him. I'm not interested in a cruel Being, who takes the position of making himself unknowable, or being above being challenged or
questioned. Anything you think you KNOW about your god, you just made up, to ease your fear of death and meaninglessness. And Jesus didn't say, "If you have a mustard seed's worth of faith, and it's my will, you can move a mountain." He said you can do it, period. If your god can't back that simple promise, then your god is nothing.

Doug:
Hey Chadwick
I want to thank you for forcing me to look further into this mustard seed business. It is very rewarding to me. I also say Bravo to you. I knew when I wrote about it "comporting to God's will", that it didn't really fit in, in this instance explicitly . It does however fit completely with the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I wondered if you might hit this "softball " over the fence, which you did, in Babe Ruth like fashion.

Upon scrutinizing this verse, I have discovered that the king James version (considered by many the most accurate translation) Never uses the words "size" or small " in its interpretation of the original Greek. To illustrate :

Matthew 17:20 King James Version :
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Now comparing this to a different translation :

Matthew 17:20 NIV
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "

This use of "small " in these other translations takes the focus off of Jesus' intended point of the verse. It makes people then presuppose that a "small bit of faith is needed "
This addition of the word "small" in these other translations are in the other Gospels as well.
Luke 17:6 KJV
And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Luke 17:6 NIV
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

The REAL point of Jesus' use of the mustard seed was to show that faith can grow from its very small origin to a great and mighty size.
I also feel that reading the king James version of Matthew 17:20 that Jesus was probably speaking metaphorically saying that a growing faith can remove large obstacles to your life. (In Jesus' day especially, mountains were very much obstacles to where they were travelling.)

The idea of the growing mustard seed of faith is paralleled and supported by

Matthew 13:31-32 KJV
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Chadwick, I wonder if hanging your theological hat, so to speak, on shaky Ehrmanisms*, might be a dangerous thing.

Now as far as your continuing insistence that God is being cruel ...are people not deciding that they choose to not accept the way it is? Does it make any sense for God to change his nature because "Chadwick thinks it's not fair".
Chadwick, God Loves it that you are questioning him, and challenging him
(Although, that IS an impossible feat, I'm afraid). He is also in no way unknowable. Matthew 7:7 KJV
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you

Chadwick:
You're welcome. And thanks for being open to discussion.
I understand why you are working so hard to explain away the failures of your god to act. I used to do the same thing. It's all fear-based. We're afraid of death, of not knowing all of the answers, of being alone.
The REAL point of Jesus' statement was that his followers should be able to easily perform miracles, or, in other words, violate the laws of nature, or demonstrate undeniable supernatural abilities. There isn't a Christian, anywhere, who can do so. Never has been, and never will be. That is hard evidence that your god does not exist, based on criteria laid out by your own god/holy book.
Christians so often confuse hard work and positive thinking, and the effects of those two, or, just plain luck, with the intervention of some power on high. It's simply not. It's hard work, positive thinking, and/or luck. Nothing more. It's NOT proof of a higher power in action. If it were, the verses you quoted above would mean that Christians would be emptying hospitals left and right, stopping storms and floods, etc., Etc. Are they? Nope. Furthermore, when you try to attribute it to a higher power, you denigrate the good you've done, or the good that others have done, or the "grace" found in pure luck. No higher power needed, for good efforts and luck to affect outcomes.
And YES, it makes sense that god should answer to me. I am a fully functioning, ethical and moral being. If god is operating in this world, he is subject to judgment, period.
Using your own holy book, he MUST be subject to judgment, or why, why, why, would he have to send his son to suffer and die? What power made him do that? Why was sacrifice required? He could have simply forgiven us, but a sacrifice was required. It was required. Once again, it was required. Required by whom? If true, it can only mean someone is above your god.
And please don't use the free will argument. It falls flat with one statement in reply, and it's this: Free will requires valid choices. Worship me, or go to hell, is NOT a choice. It's blackmail.
Are you incapable of independent moral and ethical thinking? No! You ARE capable. You are fully equipped to make decisions regarding good and bad. And if your god doesn't measure up, toss him out !!

Doug:
Why would I toss out my God? The one who IS EVERYTHING that is GOOD, PURE and TRUE?, THE ONE WHO CREATED THIS MOST INCREDIBLE UNIVERSE?, Only a fool would do such a thing.
"Worship me or go to Hell"?, THAT is the big lie. When you let your eyes be opened, it's more like "Not being able to worship him IS Hell", when you come to the realization that we are eternal souls stuck in a physical body right now. THAT is probably a foreshadow of what HELL is. (It's the separation from him)
I probably cant give any more details on this. GOD only knows those secrets and mysteries on the future of our souls, but that's good enough for me, I'll just follow the incredible manual that He gave us.
God does "just forgive us " as you say. But do you really think God should do this without expecting SOMETHING from us in return ? We are made in His image and WE REALLY have a hard time with forgiving others outright (without any contrition ) . God merely asks this contrition of us by our accepting of his magnificent "peace offering " of His Son, to us. It doesn't really get much easier than that.
Now as far as the sacrifice being "required", I'm musing that God could have chosen anything to be a dividing line
to choosing HIM or not. I suppose if he would have made say, "eating a ham sandwich "the dividing choice , today there would be GREAT resistance to eating ham sandwiches the world over. Imagine how THAT would effect the world we would be living in. Now that being said , God chose this sacrifice / redemption system for him/ us to operate under, and the Bible congruently follows this theme . I know you can probably say that this "theme " shows itself in all kinds of ancient civilizations outside of the BIBLE, but maybe that just shows how God has written this into our hearts.
Now in regards to your assertion that CHRISTIANS are NOT performing these supernatural miracles all over the place. Where are you getting this info?
Your source is probably the "propaganda propellant" arm of the Satanic powers that I tell you about. Well, then of course your'e not going to know about it.
Go into a spirit filled Christian church and pose that statement to them. I'm quite sure that they would set you straight on this idea with a lot of incredible and true stories.
Do you REALLY think you are going to see the following story on the five o'clock "news"?:

"This incredible story just in :
A man with terminal cancer who goes into a Doctor's office after being prayed over by Holy Spirit filled Christians is found by doctors to be totally cancer free! : The incredible details at eleven!"
No you won't, but this happens multiple times around the world every single day. And the doctors just chalk it up to "misdiagnosis."

So the lying Satanic drum just keeps beating on.
The bottom line is this Chadwick: this spiritual battle "rages on" every single minute of every single day, right in front of ALL of our eyes. It's just a matter of "do you chose to see it ?" ; and at what cost?

----------------
ch 13

Lessons learned:

Lesson 1

An atheist's reasoning abilities must get totally compromised, because they seem to think that perverting scripture can make some kind of point other than " I'm a perverter". (Of these scriptures which have been painstakingly preserved for thousands of years... now THERE is a study that is well worth the atheist to look into, but their pride will never let them do.)

Lesson 2:

" The devil wont be able to blind me to an objectively verifiable miracle".... oh so much to say on this comment/attitude of Chadwick.
But I'll just let the overarching ultimate lesson that I think I garnered from this interaction continue to unfold and manifest itself through this debate.

Doug:

Hey I am reminded how I laid out the Free Will argument to you very eloquently and how you dismissed it when you knew that you had no defense against it . It is indeed the most logical argument to defense the faith, and as you proved yourself, there is no reasonable objection to it. This free will argument is the very reason the ideas that you have, show me you are on the wrong path to finding God. Your scientific method is never going to prove God .
But, my instruction manual tells me that someday soon, he will show himself to us all in the way that you desire.  But, unfortunately for you to continue to go on the path you are on currently, then it will be too late for you. I know that you have no fear of God but I also know you have no wisdom. I am having some serious deja vu.

Chadwick:

Your argument regarding Free Will was not persuasive.

Doug:

Ok, if you ever feel a bout of self honesty, just remember GOD IS real, and he does love you.

Chadwick:

In all honesty, I've never seen anything to give me reason to believe there is a god, of any kind.

MmmHmm . . . 1 Kings 18: 20-40 (you'll notice some names have been changed - to make a point)
So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. Chadwick went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Reason and Science control, follow Reason and Science; but if Yahweh is God, follow him."
But the people said nothing.
Then Chadwick said to them, "I am the only one of the prophets of Reason and Science left, but Yahweh has four hundred and fifty prophets (DOUG BEING ONE OF THEM). Get two bulls for us. Let Yahweh's prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of Reason and Science. The god who answers by fire--he is God."
Then all the people said, "What you say is good."
Chadwick said to the prophets of Yahweh, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Yahweh from morning till noon. "Yahweh, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.
At noon Chadwick began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.
Then Chadwick said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of Reason and Science, which had been torn down. Chadwick took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of Reason and Science had come, saying, "Your name shall be Humanity." With the stones he built an altar in the name of Reason and Science, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs[a] of seed. He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood."
"Do it again," he said, and they did it again.
"Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.
At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Chadwick stepped forward and stated: Reason and Science dictate that if I pour gasoline all over this offering and alter, and then light a match and throw it upon the alter, it will burst into flame. Let it be known today that Reason and Science work and that you should be what we look to when trying to decide how to run our lives. Answer me, Reason and Science, answer me, so these people will know that you, Reason and Science, are TRUE, and that you are opening their minds and hearts back from superstition to Truth, again."
Then Chadwick poured gasoline all over the alter and sacrifice, and, BOOM, the fire caught and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "Reason and Science work !!! We should follow Reason and Science and give up superstition and all other gods, like Yahweh, Allah, Shiva, etc. !!!"
Then Chadwick commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Yahweh. Don't let anyone get away!" (AND LITTLE DOUG, TOO). They seized them, and Chadwick had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there. - AMEN!!

Doug:
(I am unable to find my immediate response to this, but it must have been simply something like " you are perverting scripture", along with some comparison to Hilary Clinton...man, I wish I could find this comment)

Chadwick:

Yeah, whatever. I didn't pervert scripture. I took a page from one of your own prophets. Why should anyone believe you, when you can't back it up, like Elijah, Jesus and the disciples allegedly did? And yes, Hillary. Dang it. Now I have to stay alive, just to see if she runs, and then to see if she wins, just so I can taunt you mercilessly about it. :P

Doug:

What's with the "I have to stay alive" comment? I pray you're not thinking something drastic ???

Chadwick:

I think about it often. It's actually a natural thing to do, when you're a depressive, like me. Just ask any depressive, and he or she will tell you the same. I don't believe it should be something to be embarrassed about or not talked about. And with me, it's not the overwrought thoughts of a depressed teen, or drama-queen adult. I'm an out and proud gay man, who's a radical anti-Theist and a Vegan animals rights advocate, who cares about the environment and lastly, peoples' rights. When I look around and see all of the ignorance (mostly due to belief in god, by the way) and cruelty (also justified by belief in god) - and all of it fear-based, I honestly think that sometimes I'd "just prefer not to." I never doubt that there's a point and meaning to existence. I can easily create my own meaning, as we all must do, regardless of whether we project that onto a god, so we can believe it's "coming from on high," but it's not about meaning or purpose. It's about whether I want to. A person gets tired. If there is a god, I can understand why she obviously checked out long ago. Humans are idiots and will probably destroy themselves in the end - deservedly so. I do know that I will not die from a lingering disease. It will be via suicide or a sudden negative health event or an accident. And some days, I'd "just prefer not to." It's no crisis and it's not an immediate threat, and I was just having a little fun with my mindset, when I wrote the phrase that now I'll have to stick around. As I stated, it's not hard to find meaning and purpose in life. Thanks for your concern, but it's not something you need to worry about. I am the captain of my life and the decision of whether I stick around or not is, and always will be (absent a sudden violent intervention), mine. It's the ultimate expression of free will (which I know you're a big proponent of), actually: Saying, "No." There will be no need for anyone to feel guilty, should I decide it's time to leave. But, to put your mind at ease, I don't anticipate that will be any time soon. So, for now, it's INTO THE FRAY !!!

Doug:

Chadwick, I have no doubt that it must be truly exhausting to pit yourself against every fiber of your created purpose for being.
Your self imposed push against acknowledging the ever ubiquitous creator of the universe, indeed has got to be a hugely overbearing load. Couple that with a pride filled, massive ego, and a rebellious spirit against natural law and God's law, and it's no wonder you are depressive and sometimes desirous of checking out. That is ALL quite a load to bear.

Matthew 11:28-30 KJV
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 7:7-8 KJV

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Yep that Jesus was so full of hate and vitriol wasn't he ?

Doug (continuing):

Chadwick, no you aren't perverting the scripture at all. (Reversing the names and actually agreeing with our side, in essence exchanging baal for Yawhey ) and then, inserting gasoline into the story. No, no that's not a perversion at all. I'd call it ...lunacy maybe ???

Chadwick:

It's a good analogy, Doug. You just don't l like to admit it. Others, who will remain unnamed to protect their privacy, have let me know, on the side, that my "Elijah" story hits the nail on the head. In fact, I've gotten so many "on the side" comments of approval, when it comes to my positions on god, etc., that they've become one of the main reasons I keep spouting off, as I do. There are a lot of closet Atheists, or at least open-minded thinkers, out there, who don't like to argue, but appreciate knowing they are not alone. The religious/conservative mob can be a scary thing, given most of their positions are based in fear and rage.

Doug:

It is still a perversion of it.(mainly because you Are putting yourself in God's place in the story and then trying to use yourself in God's place to some how, in your weird mind, discredit God.) Whaaaat ??? I will stick with the incredible wisdom of the instruction manual :
Proverbs 14:12 KJV
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matthew 7:13-14 KJV
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The ONLY reason people disrespect the Bible, is because they really don't understand what it is or truly study it. It IS the most heavily scrutinized and attacked document in existence that I am sure has changed many of your like minded cohorts when they have tried to attack and discredit it by trying to know it. It has NEVER been discredited by any scholarly open minded or evenhanded skeptic, it is infallible to any truly honest. rational being. A fact that is a fact even to your agendized blinded lying eyes.

Chadwick:

You are wrong. I lived and breathed the bible for years. I've read it cover to cover. I understand it. I reject it, because it doesn't stand up to objective evidence - and, as I've stated over and over again, the promises it makes are easily proven to be lies. It promises you can perform miracles, Doug. And you can't . . . you can't. That's a huge piece of evidence, which you are simply too afraid to acknowledge. I understand why, as well. If you do, your bible falls apart and becomes simply whatever you interpret it to be (it already is, but you won't admit that, either). And if everyone can interpret it to be whatever they want it to be, then what is it? Nothing - or at least certainly not the word of a god. And many very educated people have discredited the bible as the word of god (myself included, for that matter). That doesn't mean there aren't some good ideas in the bible. Of course there are. There are good ideas in every "holy" book. Why is your holy book a better "instruction manual" than anyone else's holy book? And just one further point, you can't judge a book's veracity by drawing your proof from the very book you are trying to evaluate - unless you are putting it to the very tests it offers as proof of its veracity. So, perform a miracle. Go into a hospital and heal a person suffering from stage 4 cancer. You can't. There's your answer, but you refuse to listen.

Doug:

Chadwick, my Bible has never " fallen apart " as you put it. The more I scrutinize it, the more truthful and affirming it becomes.
I am sorry that you hang your whole theological position on the fact that God wont be your circus monkey performing miracles at your needed whim. God DOES perform the kind of miracles you ask for EVERY SINGLE DAY , you just will never see it the way YOU want to see it, because GOD doesnt work that way. Again, he is not YOUR PERFORMING MONKEY! I know this seems some kind of cop out to your blinded eyes, but it is in fact the truth .

Chadwick:

Excuses, excuses, as always. God doesn't work that way? He said he does. But, you can't perform a miracle, so you continue to do your mental somersaults to excuse his failure. Your god can't fail you, because you won't let him. You will always make excuses for him. That's not faith. That's fear. - and there it is - fear.

Doug:

Chadwick, I cant help but think that even if God were to heal you tomorrow, you would have some excuse yourself, in your own blind mind as to how it wasn't really him doing it. Just sayin....

Chadwick:

That's not what is promised in your holy book, Robert. ( a reference to a third party entering conversation) You're making excuses for your god. Back when I was a born again Christian and truly believed in your god, I was never able to perform a miracle, despite what he promised me. I now know why. Granted, I'm not a Christian, today, but I didn't ask your god to perform a miracle for me. I asked one of you to perform a miracle, which your god promised you could do. I have yet to see anyone accomplish what should be a very simple task. Do you know why??

Doug:

I know why Chadwick, because you refuse to see it. You have isolated yourself so far from God, and Satan has such a stranglehold on you, that of course you cant see it. Go to a Spirit filled church and feel his presence again. I dare you.

------------
ch 14

Lessons learned

Lesson number 1
Despite my many, many attempts to get this atheist who has "such obvious truth" on his side... with so much scientific evidence and Logic on his side that "destroys a Christian in a debate" ... despite all of that, I could never, ever get Chadwick to show me ANY of this evidence. What does this teach me? Well that it is a Supernatural battle and not a logical one. This all inspired this write:

God's Freewill offering to man-

Attention! Attention ! This is only a test!
To see what it is, MY transient humans,
What it is that you love best.

As soon as My love thought of this thing called " free will."
Good and evil exploded into existence
so the void that it created could be filled.

Now,MY Creation, IT screams out
with two opposing views
Because I AM Truth and Love,
It's up to YOU to choose.

When you look up and see all that I have created.
Your own personal void
now, IT must be sated.

When you look up into My Heavens,
and emotion and reason lie still,
it forms this sort of Cosmic Cross
between MY Grace and your own free will.

Do you say?:

"Wow! The one who made all this !
Obviously can give us so much more!
I wonder what else is my gift?
It's probably behind all those hidden doors."

Or do you say?:

"Wow! This is all just dandy and fine,
but I'm gonna reach out here and grab what's mine!
I really see no hidden doors,this must really all be it,
so I'm gonna take what I can get, I want more, more, more, more, more!

Do you CHOOSE to concern yourself with what eternity offers?

Or

Do you CHOOSE to concern yourself with filling up your dust to dust earthly coffers?

Do you accept the Cosmic Crossing offered and confirmed in My Covenantal Book?

Will you accept the Cosmic Crossing offered and let your will meet with Thine?

Or,

Will you say that the great
I AM
is just a tiny mortal speck
who happens to be
"only me and mine"?

Do you choose to love the Grace ,
that lies so plainly before
your face ?
Or do you choose to
hate and berate,
or just ignore
this Freewill to you that I Gave

This is why I leave you with this most elementary of choices:
Science,reason and logic can be perverted so much
by some of Freewill's incarnate voices.

Chadwick:

_ The reason religious scholars don't debate rationalists is because religious scholars will lose, if they have to rely on logic and reason. The only way to believe in a god, is to throw out logic and reason. And why aren't you suspicious of a god who tells you not to test him? Because you've thrown out logic and reason. And the only reason I don't see miracles is because another made-up entity has blinded me to them? Good grief. Well, I'll jump on the bandwagon. The only reason you believe in the bible and see miracles all around you, is that the Easter Bunny put a spell on you, and sprinkles fairy-dust on your food everyday. Honestly, that is what you sound like. You literally make up everything you believe in. All I'm asking for is one, just one, objectively verifiable miracle, and you can't do it. The devil won't be able to blind me to an objectively verifiable miracle. Jesus allegedly did it. The disciples allegedly did it. You don't accuse them of "testing their god." They used miracles to "open people's eyes." So, do it. As I've stated, again and again, you can't . . . And that speaks to Truth.

Doug:

Hence Chadwick, we each arrive at the crux of our condition. We EACH actually believe in verifiable, undeniable truth. Mine comes from something, and yours comes from nothing.

"Well..... mine is based in science and reason!" (As is mine), you will say. To that I say : "Why is it that every time your science answers a question (a very noble cause indeed) why does that always, always raise AT LEAST one new question? Try honestly contemplating the answer to THAT question, and then honestly contemplate the questions that THAT answer raises, and I am quite sure you will be led straight to God. (For God and Truth are the same thing, and again I say the pursuit of Truth and TRUE Science are in fact the SAME THINGS!) In the same way that, as I said earlier, almost all the great scientists throughout history have been convinced to believe in a higher Creator. (No matter what your agendized pseudo scientist religionists might tell you.).
As far as this verifiable healing miracle, I have explained it over to you time and time again, that YES they do happen every day, and NO your "science" will never allow itself to see it. (Doctors are constantly dismissing them as a misdiagnosis or a "fluke" of some kind. It is only Godly Doctors who believe in higher powers that will admit to these miracles, but then they are dismissed because "we all know what crazy fools THEY are."

Doug:

Chadwick, you also didn't answer the question I asked " why don't your science loving skeptics debate Christian theologians and Biblical scholars ?" You inverted it into a false statement. Don't believe me? Do some honest research.
The answer is that they lose to logic and reason every time. I though I'd save you some time. But go ahead and TRY to prove me wrong. (Show me a debate where your "scientists" are not made to look like fools. I would love to finally see one.)

Doug:: (continuing)
Chadwick, I'm sure you knew I had another long soliloquy brewing.
In my not so long ago theological wondering and wandering days I used to think "maybe there is more than one way to God." Thus the verse: John 14:6 KJV
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Used to give me theological mind pains and conniptions . I used to even play Clintonesque Semantical games like: it all depends on what "comes to the Father" is. I have hence come to learn that this verse is the very crux of EVERYTHING.
This man who had the audacity to claim that HE was God and to claim that He was the very Messiah that the Pharisees and scribes of his time we're even waiting for and anticipating of his arrival; and the fact that they didn't even recognize it, this fact even fulfilling the very prophecies that these scribes and Pharisees were "Masters" of, this
speaks volumes.
This man who had the authority to back up his claims. A man of great love, wisdom and great miracles, and who actually had the genealogy prophesied in the Old Testament. None of this has ever been invalidated. The Jewish people in those times kept very meticulous details on their genealogy.
This is what makes the true followers of this Christ, not a religion which you so much rightfully disdain. (There are many so-called "Christians "who do very evil things in his name. I agree, these are religions.) Matthew 7:22-24 KJV says
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: "
(Notice Jesus calling out these workers of iniquity.) The TRUE followers of Christ are in fact truth seekers.

I can't express enough to you what an incredible unequalled historical document that the Bible really is. It is matched by no other. If you were to really study it, you would agree.
Ma chiff, (an outside commenter) when you say "man wrote the Bible" it's akin to you saying "Your mom made you". On the strictly physical plane that statement is true, but we both know that there is much more going on as to the inspiration and manifestation of that statement.
It's great ma that you are going to read C.S Lewis' Screwtape letters. I think you will find it very enlightening, filled with wisdom, and entertaining.
I don't know if you do audio books, but if you can find the FOCUS ON THE FAMILY'S recording of it, it is highly entertaining and humorous and very well done. I also think if you read Lewis' "Mere Christianity" it would help you to shore up some of that shaky theological ground that you like to stand on with Chadwick. Maybe your judgement is not as "clouded" as his, and may actually like to read it.

As to this gay issue, ma chiff, it is true that a TRUE Christian church would show Christ's love to them in the same way that they would to any other sinner. But they would in no way condone this sin any more than they would condone any other sin.
Leviticus 20:13 KJV
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Also look at Romans 1 26-32.

Luckily, now we are under the New Covenant and this "death "is a spiritual death but obviously still the most important.

No matter what any sinner feels about the origin of their sin, they can become a New creature through Christ, thus finding the power to overcome any sin by leaning on their one TRUE MASTER. This concept is very simple and yet very complex, and if you were to truly explore this concept, (I would be very happy to assist you in this endeavor) It would indeed change your life. This, Chadwick, I think is the road block that sent you astray on your former "Christian walk", and still does keep you away.

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ch 15

Lessons learned:

lesson#1
This lesson I learned is actually stated nicely in my current response to Chadwick. (I will include a writing on this most important lesson that was inspired by this debate at the end of this chapter)

Doug:

I find it an intriguing phenomenon on this earth that each side of any spiritual argument can so emphatically believe things. Each side clings to ideas that in their own mind proves to THEMSELVES that their position is correct. Any "good" position taken by either side will NEVER be proven or disproven in a satisfactory way to the party concerned. (What Ma chiff so wisely says ) To me, this speaks to the fact that this illustrates that it all comes down to something else. In this case, this "something else" is something much more important. This something else IS the state of our hearts. This is a statement that I believe wholeheartedly and I Know that you'll never disprove Chadwick. I'm sure also that you have a counter position to this point that YOU Know is right and will hardenedheartedly believe that my side will never disprove (in this present world anyways).

Isn't the Creator of "all this" just incredibly majestic? (I couldn't resist ) He created a world where the wiser we think we are, the more foolish we REALLY are. And the less prideful we think we are the more mired we are with this pride. This is a point that C.S. Lewis makes in 'mere Christianity'. So... I feel somewhat convicted by my own statement.

Chadwick your foolish, (a Biblically sound statement) pharoesque hardened heart that has metastasized to a place between your ears, which you claim to be your "rock" I believe started back at a time when your prideful rebellious sexual "journey through the desert of deception" got a hold of it.

Anyways, in regards to this "healing" thing that you continue to lean on; most of these healings that I was eluding to are not done by Christians, per se, performing miracles (at least not in a traditional sense). I'm talking about these "healers" whose blinders have come off. These people who are truth seekers in respect to refusing to be victims to our medical system. This is something I am very passionate about and feel sometimes like a lonely voice in the wilderness. I think you can probably relate to THAT.
I have mentioned this before, that a lot of these alternative healers happen to be Christian. This is not a coincidence, I believe. They ARE doing amazing healing of all kinds. This most definitely includes cancer cured every single day. THESE ARE the ones that you never will hear about through the multi billion dollar pharmaceutically controlled mass media. Could it be these healers are showing their faith through their works?
I believe so. So in THIS sense, God IS healing through His people. Praise the Lord!
The other direct miracles that you keep thirsting for, also DO happen. Case in point, my own pastor who in his heathen days was told by a Doctor (of death) to go home and prepare to die, for he was feeble and wasting away and beyond their help.
He claims he went to a church and that God spoke to him directly and told him "trust in ME Son and I will heal you", and well, the rest is history, or as your type might say "that's just HIS story".
Anyways I will continue to lean on My Rock, which is The Lord Jesus Christ as explained in God's instruction manual for
man.

Chadwick:

No, this is categorically wrong. It may apply to "spiritual" philosophies and theories, but it doesn't apply to science. Science ALWAYS gives a satisfactory answer. It explains something, or admits it doesn't know, and needs to do more work. It isn't filled with fantasy and the childish fears of the unknown and death.

DOUG: ( Chadwick refutes my points point by point and reprints them)
To me, this speaks to the fact that this illustrates that it all comes down to something else. (In this case, this something else is something much more important , the state of our hearts ) this is a statement that I believe wholeheartedly and Know you'll never disprove. And I'm sure you have a counter position to this point that YOU Know is right and will hardenedheartedly believe that my side will never disprove ( in this present world anyways).

Chadwick:

Yes, it does come down to something else. It speaks to the fact that people are afraid of the unknown and afraid of death. They are paralyzed with fear, and refuse to shake off their childish ways and face reality as thinking, reasoning adults, embracing their fear and making peace with it. Us adults can admit we don't know. HOW TERRIFYING !!!! QUICK, INVENT AN ALL POWERFUL BEING TO FILL IN THE BLANKS !!!

DOUG:

Isn't the Creator of "all this" just incredibly majestic ? (I couldn't resist ) He created a world where the wiser we think we are , the more foolish we REALLY are. And the less prideful we think we are the more mired we are with this pride. ( A point C.S Lewis makes in mere Christianity.) So I feel somewhat convicted by my own statement.)

Chadwick:
Nature and evolution are "all this," and incredibly majestic. Only a fool would invent a "cause," rather than seek it.

DOUG:
Chadwick your foolish, ( a Biblically sound statement) pharoesque hardened heart that has metastasized to a place between your ears, which you claim to be your "rock", I believe started back at a time when your prideful rebellious sexual "journey through the desert of deception" got a hold of it.

Chadwick:

Oh yes, Pharaoh, another example of your monster god knowing a poor individual will fail him (in this case even CAUSING him to fail), and then punishing him for it. Praise be to the evil one that is your master !! Geeeezzzz . . . . THINK about what you're saying for once !!

DOUG:

Anyways, in regards to this "healing" thing that you continue to lean on, most of these healings that I was aluding to are not done by Christians per se, performing miracles (at least not in a traditional sense).
I'm talking about "healers" whose blinders have come off (truth seekers for sure) in respect to refusing to be victims to our medical system. This is something I am very passionate about, and feel sometimes like a lonely voice in the wilderness. I think you can probably relate. I have mentioned this before, that a lot of these alternative healers happen to be Christian, (not a coincidence, I believe) and ARE doing amazing healing of all kinds. This most definitely includes cancer  being "cured" every single day. THESE ARE the ones that you never will hear about through the multi billion dollar pharmaceutically controlled mass media. Could it be these healers are showing their faith through their works? I believe so. So in THIS sense, God IS healing through his people! Praise the Lord! Although the other direct miracles that you keep thirsting for also DO happen.

Chadwick:

Epic fail. I don't remember Jesus referring to "healers" such as these. He said if you have faith, you can move mountains, period. You're just making more excuses.

DOUG:
Case in point: my own pastor, who in his heathen days, was told by a Doctor (of death) to go home and prepare to die. For he was feeble and wasting away and beyond their help. He claims he went to a church and that God spoke to him directly and told him "trust in me Son and I will heal you", and well, the rest is history, or as your type might say "that's just HIS story".
Anyways I will continue to lean on My Rock, which is The Lord Jesus Christ as explained in God's instruction manual for man.

Chadwick:

Your pastor is a liar, or delusional. I suppose he's seen Big Foot too?

This all inspired this write. Which I think greatly sums up a great lesson.

The " mad SCIENTIST " who bisects our hearts-

What kind of a "mad SCIENTIST" can create an experiment so masterfully....so brilliantly, seemingly bordering on diabolical that its results seem to be both congruent, AND incongruent simultaneously? ...

Where the subjects of this "grand, mad experiment" ; even the sharpest, smartest, most educated and scientifically minded inquisitors can be convinced beyond reason above all reason that THEIR logically reasoned hypotheses and conclusions are ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and can be proven with undeniably truthful facts. (And probably are)...
... AND the diametrically opposed experimental subjects on the opposite side can do EXACTLY the same thing?...
OR....NOT.

Are we "being played" by an entity that is infinitely smarter, wiser, craftier and more powerful than us mere mortals?

Is THIS why the person who WANTS to believe "X" in his heart will NEVER EVER be convinced of "Y" no matter what the "evidence" says? ...
AND,
Why the person who WANTS to believe "Y" in his heart will NEVER EVER be convinced of "X", no matter what the "evidence" says?
Well....
Not without FIRST Changing his heart.

What an absolutely, infinitely, masterfully
brilliant way for this "mad SCIENTIST" to isolate for a "single variable", in this most important experiment ; and that single variable my friends is in fact "our heart" which IS our FREEWILL.

Our FREEWILL ... that this "mad SCIENTIST" who I call my Creator God has lovingly and unequivocally (though some hearts will say equivocally) and of HIS OWN freewill, bestowed upon us ; and wants nothing more than for us to free willingly love HIM back...
OR NOT... (you can continue wandering around in the laboratory's rat maze, chasing that "red herring" known as science and "provable" fact)
It's up to the state of YOUR heart.
Here's some questions for that heart:
Is there a reason for us being here?
If there is, then what is that reason?
Could there be an instruction manual?
Could that instruction manual be saying on many pages : " love your Creator, your Lord your God with all your heart,
soul and mind" ?

Or ... could I simply be engaging in a heartfelt case of circular reasoning?
Or....Not (?)!

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