Bible Studies

Does 1 john 57 prove the trinity?

by lee thriepland
08/19/18
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Does 1 john 5-7 prove the trinity?

It is often a go to verse for trinitarians, one of the best evidences for the trinity in the Bible. But does John 1-57 really prove the trinity like it is so often claimed it does?

1 John 5-7 For there are three that testify: NIV
1 John 5-7 So we have these three witnesses– NLT
1 John 5-7 For there are three that testify: ESV
1 John 5-7 For there are three that testify: NASB
1 John 5-7 There are three witnesses:  GNT
1 John 5-7 For there are three witnesses —  ISV

We have 3 witnesses ??? Who are the 3 witnesses?  

We need to go to the next verse to find out (might be important to know what they witness or testify to as well. We are not told as to what here.)

1 john 5-8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. NIV
1 John 5-8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood–and all three agree. NLT
1 John 5-8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. ESV
1 John 5-8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. NASB
1 John 5-8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three give the same testimony. GNT
1 John 5-8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are one. ISV

Well that settles it then. The 3 that bear witness are the spirit, water and the blood. They all agree.  

Well there you go,the answer is NO 1 John 5-7 does not prove the trinity, that was nice and simple.……….

What’s that ? What about the father, word and Holy spirit bearing witness in heaven and all three are one?

Ah you mean

1 John 5-7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. KJV

Of course.  Well that’s a different story. I guess i should deal with the verse as it is here.

First things first

But……..first things first. Before I deal with the verse as it is found in the KJV and whether it supports the trinity. I just have to say.

If you use ANY of the Bibles that I listed at the beginning, and there are plenty more that do not read as the KJV, but then use the verse as it is found in the KJV to prove the trinity, then you are a hypocrite. The KJV is NOT translated from the same manuscripts  as the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, GNT, ISV,

These Bible translation are translated using the Nestle and Alund texts which have their roots firmly planted in the Alexandrian line of manuscripts such as Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. If you have read my writing on the Greek septuagint these will be familiar.  

The text as it reads in the KJV which has its foundations in the byzantine manuscripts are NOT found in the Alexandrian line of manuscripts.

If you use a Bible that is translated from the manuscripts that are “older and more reliable” then at least be honest enough to go with it, even when that text does not allow you to push a verse that you want to push in order to support your belief.  Using any of these modern Bibles that do not include the verse as it is found in the KJV, but then using the verse as it is found in the KJV to support your trinity claim, is simply put, dishonest. You should stand by your understanding that the Bible you use is superior to the KJV, and therefore should not accept the verse as authentic. This is what the text that underlies the modern versions would declare.  

Those that do use it, while maintaining the use of these other Bibles show themselves as unstudied and clearly do not believe in a Bible that is preserved. Cherry picking which Bible version best states what they wish to say.

Ok well with that over and out of the way, let’s get back to the verse at hand and the question, does it support the trinity.

1 John 5-7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Here it is claimed that the verse shows that in heaven there are the father, word and Holy spirit and they are all one. A perfect representation of the trinity.

I won’t be dealing with the does the verse as found in the KJV belong or not argument, I will do that in another writing. As a KJV only believer I 100% believe this verse belongs in the Bible. Not only do I believe that it belongs in the Bible, I believe that when the verse is put back into context, and not simply taken as a verse on its own, which is the usual trinitarian trick, the verse, rather than proving the trinity, actually proves the EXACT opposite of what the trinitarian asserts it proves.

Before putting the verse back into context let’s first look at the verse itself  

1 John 5-7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

First thing to notice we have the word referenced and not the son. The word, as the trinitarians claim is Jesus the son, and so the son is referenced.  I could spend some time here arguing against this interpretation, however I won’t, because I don’t actually need to……

Whether it be the word or Jesus it makes absolutely NO difference to the real meaning of this verse.

Notice that the verse says There are three that bear record. This is very important. When, at the end of the verse it says they are one, it does not mean they are literally the same being. The father, word and the holy spirit being one refers to the record that they bear. They all agree.  Bear record is the Greek μαρτυρέω martureó and means to bear record, witness to testify.

The father, word and holy spirit all agree as one to the witness that they bear

When we go to the next verse, and yes if you are going to use the KJV and its wording in 1 John 5-7 then to be consistent and honest you will also have to use the KJV when it comes to 1 John 5-8 as well.

1 John 5-8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Here there are also 3 that bear witness this time on earth. Bear witness is the same word used in the previous verse for bear record μαρτυρέω martureó. They both mean the exact same thing.

The spirit, water and blood. Notice this time the verse states all 3 AGREE in one. All 3 are in agreement. This obviously does not mean that the spirit, water and blood are all the same being, and nobody actually argues that they are. Well at least nobody I have interacted with. However to be consistent it should be argued that they are all the same being if that is the interpretation that you are going to apply to verse 7. The Greek is almost identical. 
Τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι treis hen eisi  (three are one) 
Τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν treis eis to hen eisin (three in one are)

Just like the Father, Word and Holy spirit who all agree together with their testimony in heaven, the spirit, water and blood all agree together with their testimony in earth.

Their witness and record are the same. They all agree. Not they they are all same being.

So the next question is what do they all testify to? What are they all witness to that they all agree?

To answer that we need to expand the context a little more. So let’s go back a few verses

1 John 5-5 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Here John makes a statement that the one that overcomes the world is the one that believes that Jesus is the SON OF GOD. So the Son of God is in view in the context of verse 7.

Then in the next verse, the immediately preceding verse to verse 7, we have the fact that Jesus came by the water and blood and the spirit of truth beareth witness.  

1 John 5-6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

The water, blood and spirit on earth.  The spirit bearing witness that Jesus came by the water and blood. So all there testify to the fact that Jesus came on earth.

If we then go forward a few verses we will see that God’s witness is greater than the witness of men and he testifies of his SON.

1 John 5-  9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

The immediate context after id regarding the witness also. Now look at the next verse

1 John 5-10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

He that believe on the SON OF GOD has the witness of himself but he that believes not on the son of God has made God a liar. Because he has not believed on the RECORD that God gave witness to about his SON.

Then we even get told what the record is

1 John 5- 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

God gave us eternal life and that eternal life is IN his son. If we go back to the gospel of John we can see that John stated that FATHER GAVE the SON the life that is in him.

John 5-26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Then we have another statement that whoever has the son has life and those that do not have the SON OF GOD does not have life.

1 John 5- 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The witness that the Father, Word/Jesus, it doesnt matter, and the holy spirit all agree  in heaven. And the water blood and spirit all agree on in earth is that Jesus Christ has come, he is the SON of God and that eternal life is in him.

As we are told in the law it is by 2 or 3 witnesses that a matter is to be declared true

Deuteronomy 17-6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19-15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

As also attested to by the New Testament

Matthew 18-16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 corinthians 13-1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

So John is not making a case that the father, word and Holy Spirit are all God, there is NOTHING in the context of John’s writing that would even remotely suggest that this is what John is meaning. In context John is actually declaring that what is agreed on by three witnesses in heaven and 3 witnesses on earth, is that Jesus is the Son of God and life is found in him.

And this perfectly aligns with the reason that John declares was the purpose of writing his gospel.

John 20-31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So it matters not whether it is the word or Jesus, whichever one it is witnesses to the fact that Jesus is the SON of God.

They bear witness, record, agree NOT that Jesus is God but that Jesus has come and is the SON of God. 1 John 5-7 does not prove the trinity.