Apologetics

Lessons learned from an atheist part2

by Douglas Eckert
12/29/16
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Lessons learned from an atheist part 2

lesson 1:
As I put this all together it becomes clear to me that the fact that I am arranging these responses in such a way in which I let Chadwick break up my long diatribes into small chunks, and rebut the points, interjecting them where he wants to, it makes my subsequent points sometimes look foolish or not relevant. I just ask the reader to remember that this is WHAT is happening. But I am confident that God's viewpoint of Love and Truth will ultimately win out upon completion of reading this very long debate.

Lesson 2:
The idea of a Hell REALLY does perturb them, despite their supposed disbelief in a God.

Lesson 3:
Atheists are seriously bugged by a Christian's comfort and peace.

Chadwick:
Doug, you do realize that you are also full of feelings and thoughts about what your god should be. Your interpretation of your holy book is your only source from which you can share your feelings and thoughts on the matter - and it's not a pretty picture. You believe a god should be a being, who allows people to be born, knowing full well whether they are going to hell, or not. A god who would allow someone to be born, who that god knows is going to make the "wrong decision," and go to hell, is a monster, period. I don't understand why that doesn't bother you. You seem to know right from wrong, and are obviously capable of independent thought.

Doug:
Chadwick,
you have GREAT misconceptions about God. A concept that you absolutely must grasp, without which, I might feel the same way you do. In Fact, I did for many years.

Now when I say that God is outside of time, it really means that God sees the past, future and present all at the same time. I know this seems strange, but this fact does NOT take away your free will that I also spoke of. Just because GOD knows before you are even born what you are going to do in your life, doesn't mean one bit that GOD will infringe on your free will to let it all play out. I stumbled over this, calling it some form of predestination for years, but that is just not right. C.S Lewis explains it brilliantly in his book 'Mere Christianity' and I'm sure there are several other fine books or even websites that explain it. Even your beloved science can show how time is basically a construct of man, thus a divine being would in fact be outside of this construct. This is why God is not some kind of barbaric monster as you put it, but is simply loving, beyond the depths of any of our imaginations, and so desperately wants us to love Him back. But as I implied before, He will NEVER Force you to love Him. (But He does try to do everything He can to coax you to love Him. )

Chadwick:
But he'll still send me to hell, if I don't accept his son as my personal savior. I'm not impressed. And C.S. Lewis was a misogynist, conservative mouthpiece for the church. I read his book, and I saw through them. Took me a moment, but he didn't fool me in the long run.

Doug:
Misogynist? Obviously the book of his that you didn't read was "A grief observed " in which he waxes on eloquently about his grief over the death of his much beloved wife. Which of his books had you read? He's a mouthpiece for the church? Well... Maybe for the Christian body, unaffiliated to any church.
He was one of the most brilliant apologists of the 20th century. He was as he describes himself
"an atheist turned theist, turned Christian." 
As far as you going to hell?  I don't know, and even you don't know. Though if I were a betting man, I might bet you are going to heaven, just based on the fact that you have great concern about it (which is more than most people). Obviously, the Holy spirit is still working on you.  And, I'm sure that  family and even myself are praying for you.

Chadwick:
The Holy Spirit is not working on me, I can assure you. That's you telling yourself a comforting story. As to C.S. Lewis, put on some true feminist glasses and go read his works, again. It will blow your mind...

DOUG:
What exactly are these "feminist glasses"?  Are they ones that reveal to us an equal but on the opposite side of the spectrum, the same hate as a real misogynist?

Chadwick:
Nope, they open your eyes to insidious reinforcements of patriarchal dominance and stereotypes.

DOUG:
What works of C.S. Lewis have you read?  Because, I for the life of me can't even imagine WHAT of his writings can be viewed as hating women, or even discusses gender for that matter.

Chadwick:
I can't think of the title, as it was long ago, but one of his female characters only finds happiness, when she gives up her own career and independence to become a "good wife." It was like a slap in the face. C.S. Lewis was very big into reinforcing gender roles in his fairy tales. Who fought against Aslan in the first book? A woman, of course, an Ice Queen. He wasn't just writing stories. He was a Christian philosopher with an agenda.

DOUG:
It seems to me that maybe you are parroting feminist propaganda, rather than using your own brain to form your own opinions. (Unless you can supply me with proof of the contrary ).

Chadwick:
When I first started looking into feminist literature and philosophy, yeah, I adopted the views of others. Over the years, I've developed my own. I used my brain to move from fundamentalist Christianity to Atheism, and many stops along the way. Also, being a gay man, who can "queen out" with the best of them, really gives me a finely honed perspective on how society devalues the feminine. And it's funny, it seems to me that you do nothing but "parrot" Christian thoughts and values not your own. I haven't read anything from you that I haven't heard a thousand times, before.

DOUG:
I can't help but to think there must be some kind of "fuel for THAT fire."

Chadwick:
Yes, there's fuel for that fire. I've seen the dishonesty and patriarchy dripping from the writings of Christianity for years, and it pisses me off. It SHOULD piss off everyone.

DOUG:
I don't claim to know ALL of his writings. Maybe he was a bit of a misogynist in his younger, bachelor,  atheistic days. I don't know, but maybe he is a good example of how a man's heart can change when he comes to know the REAL truth of the transformation into a REAL Son of God, through the acceptance of God's Covenant with man through Jesus Christ.

Chadwick:
Good lord, I just threw up a little in my mouth - and I can read between the lines. You have no standing to doubt my once earnest beliefs in Christianity and my relationship with Jesus Christ, as a young man and young adult. I have been there and done that. I had as "real" of an experience as anyone. What I came to realize, using my brain, by the way, was that none of it was REAL. Any personal growth anyone experiences as a result of taking up a belief system comes from within that person. There is no outside source. It's all from within, darling''! Neither C.S. Lewis, nor you, can fool me - and I've been fool proof for years.

DOUG:
As far as you saying " the holy spirit is not working on you " maybe that's you just telling yourself a non spiritual convicting comforting story.

Chadwick: MmmHmmm . . ., Right. Christianity is nothing but a fairytale for adults, in which they find comfort. It's nothing but a reaction to the fear of death and the fact that each individual has to create his or her own meaning in this life - which is hard work - which is why so many opt out and grab for the security blanket of religion.

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ch 4

Lessons learned

Lesson 1:
As this debate occurs,  it becomes more and more obvious to me that God has so strategically and brilliantly positioned Himself in such a way as those who want to see Him CAN see Him, and those who DON'T want to see Him WON'T.

Lesson 2:
When you try to nail atheists down on their beloved science, it oftentimes shows the empty foundation their religion is founded upon.

Doug:
Chadwick, it has become glaringly obvious to me that there are two different sciences out there.
One that is thriving and growing in its quest for truth because it includes ALL hypotheses (including intelligent design, because there is VERY STRONG cosmological, mathematical and logical and biological evidence that suggests such a hypothesis, which I try to get you to look into).
And then there is this stifled science that excludes out of hand any possible intelligent design hypotheses. This "science" is stifled because it spends its time reformulating hypotheses every time it buts up against the growingly obvious intelligent design hypothesis. This "science" then spins its wheels creating everly increasing ridiculous non logical models to try and negate the real truth that it wont accept.
Chadwick, how can you consider this real science? You are deluding yourself, and falling prey to the atheist agenda that uses outdated science, mostly "Darwinism" which has scientifically been annihilated (if you don't see this, it's a case in point).
Chadwick, doesn't even the smallest inkling of something exist deep in your heart that knows that you are blinding yourself to the real truth? Be honest now. Look into Robin Collins' work, or William Lane Craig or even Lee Strobel ( a former atheist), to name a few. The price of your delusion is MUCH too high. There IS an eternal God out there who loves you and WANTS to commune with YOU.
I dare YOU sir, to look at the Real truth, but you can't handle the Truth. ( I thought a line like that really fits well here) really your as equally biased as I am, only I admit it.

Chadwick:
Science is objective. It has no agenda but TRUTH. Your "scientific" evidence is biased. If I could cross-examine your witnesses, the jury would be laughing at them, just like the rest of the legitimate scientific community is, by the time I was through with them.

Doug:
I introduced all kinds of scientific evidence, and you ignore it.

I call for a mistrial because your judge is biased.

Chadwick:
I'm not the one trying to introduce hearsay. I'm only introducing scientific evidence. You're the one saying "god told me so." That's hearsay.

Doug:
How's this then? I object.  That is ALL hearsay, based on someone's ignorant opinion.

Chadwick:
lol !! But the jury heard it !!

Doug:
I didn't say that, you know better.

Chadwick:
I'm glad we agree.

Doug:
Ok bud.

I don't know if physics supports energy being eternal. I would think big bang theory says no, but maybe what you call energy, Christians call God. Now the question is: is this "energy" personal and or intelligent?  There is astounding evidence to the affirmative.

Chadwick:
No, the energy isn't intelligent. So no, it isn't the equivalent of what Christians call "god." Intelligence came about through evolution. No intelligence is required for the Universe to have been "born" at the Big Bang, nor for the laws of physics to have come into being and for things to have progressed from there. And no, there isn't "astounding evidence" in the affirmative. Magical thinking isn't evidence.

Or we may be down to energy is eternal, and transcends time and space.

Doug:
Or what we may be down to also, is that God is eternal. Or,  what we may be down to also,  is that God is eternal, transcends time and space, and He brings reason to the universe.

Chadwick:
If all of those theories you just put forth come to the conclusion that there MUST be an intelligent designer, then they are simply wrong. How do I know? Because, if there HAD to be an "Intelligent designer, then there HAD to be an intelligent designer to create your intelligent designer. And we're back to what's more believable? 'Popping from nothing: 1) an unimaginably complex Being, or 2) simple energy. Once again, logic makes me the winner.

Doug:
Wouldn't the very definition of a God be something that was NEVER created, or NEVER COULD be created?

You say you handle the fine tuned universe question the same way I do? Well here is how I handle it...the cosmological constant along with the enthropic principle, the kalam cosmological argument, and thousands of other logical and experiential points, it is beyond an "unbased faith " that an intelligent designer (God exists) .
Does this mean then that you are leaving presupposaleasterbunnylandia, and moving to the land of theism?

Hey, check out physicist Robin Collins online.

You say energy, but not God can pop, although there can be SOMETHING eternal, can there not?

Chadwick:
I don't understand what that means. Elaborate, please.

Doug:
Ok,  so some things can pop into existence from nothing
(more convenient things), and some things cannot
(more troubling things), sounds like a sound theory to me.

Chadwick:
Now you're getting it.

Doug:
Where did these universal laws come from?
Maybe they popped out of nothing?

Chadwick:
The same way that yours do. You attribute it to a god that you still assert popped out of nothing (and then stop there - lazy), and I attribute it to the workings of universal laws, which we may not understand, but we keep trying. I assert simple energy popped out of nothing, rather than an unimaginably complex Being popping out of nothing. Logic is, once again, on my side, when what we assert what popped out of nothing.

Doug:
Here are some of my thoughts on the Strobel book:
I'm sure your familiar with the kalam argument.

The kalam cosmological argument says:
1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Your "god popping out of nothing " argument seems to speak to the first cause concept.
There HAS to be a first cause, OR something that is eternal.
William Lane Craig quite logically shows a personal creator that is outside of time and space and is eternal.

He goes on to show how Hawkings' " theory of all theories" I think it's called or is it: the unified something theory?, Anyways his working model proceeds to hide singularity by using imaginary numbers in his math, and when he converts those imaginary numbers back to real numbers the hard edge of singularity reappears.

Jeffrey T Allen's argument against Craig's argument strikes me as an equivalent version of " If God can do anything , can he create a boulder so heavy that even HE can't lift it? "
It seems a little bit ridiculous to me
I think maybe it's another instance of God giving the atheists their beloved escape hatch to keep them happy in their will to disbelieve.

Chadwick, how do your atheistic views account for the cosmological constant, and the fine tuning of the universe?
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ch 5

Lessons learned:

Lesson 1:
Often times there are unspoken reasons that an atheist won't accept a God.

Lesson 2:
An atheistic viewpoint seems to be the pinnacle of a self- indulgence. (I put a "**" next to Chadwick's comment that beautifully illustrates this.)

Chadwick:
Hi Doug, here we go: (Chadwick proceeds in his usual manner to break down and rebut my last diatribe.)

DOUG:
Hi Chadwick, a few quick thoughts in response to your last message to me. First, in regards to your assertion that Christian beliefs are some kind of "safety blanket " as you call it. I feel that I quite excellently explained how I very methodically and rationally came to the conclusion that the "Christian theology, is indeed the most obvious and rational way to view our little part of our existence in this little part of the universe."

Chadwick:
No, you didn't methodically and rationally explain how you came to the conclusion that "Christian theology" is, indeed, the most obvious and rational way to view our little part of our existence. All you need to do is watch the show that's on T.V. Right now, "The Cosmos." That is the most methodical and rational explanation of how to view our little part of our existence. The science speaks to 13.5 billion years. Your theological viewpoint is what? At most, six thousand years old? Why is it rational to believe in magic, rather than science?

DOUG: A few of your responses to it have indicated to me that you don 't really fully have an intellectual grasp on what I was saying. Perhaps you should read it again , paying closer attention to the hugely unprecedented veracity of the Biblical text and more specifically its prophecies and their fulfillment.

Chadwick:
Doug, honestly, I used to buy into what you're selling. It doesn't hold up. Read this again: The persons who wrote the biblical texts were fully aware of the prophesies of old, and wrote their stories accordingly. There was no "fulfillment," other than those future authors writing stories in line with what was predicted in the old stories.

DOUG: Now as far as your disdain for patriarchy, I didn't know it was intrinsically bad. I guess I can say that my devotion to the Bible and how it instructs humans to behave, the way God created us to behave, is my only defense.

Chadwick:
If the bible is your only defense, your only defense is based on a book full of inconsistencies, irrationality, misogyny, violence, rape, genocide, etc. You need to find a better defense. I've found it. I invite you to let go of your fear of the unknown and fear of death, and look at what's really here, what's really out there, the truth. It's all there for you to discover; science, logic, philosophy, great literature, etc. And when you reach the extent of the answers available, you take the position of an adult, and simply state, "I don't know," "we don't know." You don't invent the equivalent of the Easter Bunny, to fill in the blanks - that's no different than ancient men concluding that thunder was the result of fighting angels. Your entire belief system, and your god, is just the invention of men (NOT, telling, women), "filling in the blanks" - men who thought the earth was flat. And of course patriarchy is bad. You are fully capable of recognizing the evils of patriarchy. Any time a system of belief puts one group above another, based on nothing more than made up values, with no basis in science or logic, and uses that belief system to keep another group down, it's bad. If you can't grasp that, you are, by definition, amoral and unethical. I don't believe you are amoral and unethical. Don't let a belief system pull you away from your true self.**

DOUG:
Which brings me to my last point. I , in no way was ripping on your "gay lifestyle" any more than I would rip on any other sinful behaviour. Yes, it IS a sin and the Bible tells us that. I think Christianity and the rest of the world did itself a great disservice when it allowed this particular sin, by the hands of Satan, to prop itself into a different realm all to itself. It Is a sexual sin no different than any other sexual sin. And it is in fact a less serious one, in God's eyes, than any of the "cardinal or deadly" sins which include pride, greed, envy, lust, wrathfullness, gluttony,
and slothfullness.

Chadwick:
Being gay isn't a choice, Doug. You want to know how I know? Because I didn't choose it, any more than you chose to be straight.
And I prayed so hard, and tried so hard, and had sex with women, when praying and trying to "just change," didn't work. You can believe me. I know, from personal experience, that it wasn't a choice. Furthermore, my being gay and living as a gay man doesn't harm anyone. If it doesn't harm anyone, why would it be sinful? There is no rational reason to oppose what I am, and letting me live that truth. Once again, the bible is full of inconsistencies, etc., See the list, above, and the myriad of other problems contained therein. Honestly, I'm having trouble believing you've even read the entire thing through.

DOUG:
Your buddy C.S Lewis can explain this point quite soundly in his book "Mere Christianity" that I still strongly recommend. I can't help but think that your "reasoned " viewpoint of Christianity is severely flawed and tainted by your chosen lifestyle. You might think that I'm being hateful right now, but I submit that it is an act of love to point out sins that are destroying God's people. The reason God hates sin is because it severs us off from sensing him and He, being our manufacturer, knows what harms us, or our fellow humans.

Chadwick:
C.S. Lewis isn't my buddy. And my viewpoint used to be yours. You seem to conveniently forget that. And, as stated, my lifestyle wasn't chosen. I am simply living my truth. I have always been gay, and always will be, just as you have always been straight, and always will be. If there is a god, she created me this way. I know what harms us, and our fellow human beings. It's ignorance and actions based thereon. You, my friend Doug, are living in purposeful ignorance. Having lived there, myself, for years, I know of what I speak. The only way to maintain your belief system is to purposefully ignore reality, proven facts, logic and science. It's like you're a drug addict, trying to justify your behavior and "game," to an ex-drug addict - that would be me. I can see right through you, because I've been there and done the same thing.

DOUG:
This is the reason why the gay male lives a much shorter lifespan on average (even taking out the HIV scam ) than hetero people do . It IS AN UNDENIABLE fact.

Chadwick:
Men live shorter lives than women. I guess that means that men are more sinful than women. Poor people live shorter lives than rich people. I guess that means that poor people are more sinful than rich people. That's terrible logic, Doug. Did you ever stop to consider why gay men might live shorter lives than straight men? Could it be because of the effects of being hated and treated like shit their entire lives? Could it be that a group of oppressed people suffer the ill effects of that oppression and thereby live shorter lives? Honestly, use your brain and make connections based on research and science, not on unsubstantiated conclusions, based on half truths and incomplete and faulty evidence.

DOUG: God is much more concerned with your heart . Dealing with heart and pride issues would allow God's grace (a co -mingling of your own freewill and God's sovereignty ) to flow back into your life, and God can then deal with any other issues that separate you from him in a flash. I KNOW you probably don't want to hear or even agree with any of this. But I'm putting it out there and ask that you put this away in your brain for possible future retrieval. As long as I'm "wishfully thinking", I'll add I urge you to READ THE GOSPEL OF JOHN AND ASK GOD TO SPEAK TO YOU.

Chadwick:
Once again, I have been there and done that. It didn't work, and I saw through it. And, believe it or not, I believe you do care about me. So, here's the simple procedure, Doug, to win me over. Your god, Jesus, said that if you have a mustard seed's worth of faith, you can move a mountain. I want you to use your mustard seed of faith, and heal me of my type II diabetes, tomorrow. If your faith is the truth, if your god is real, if your holy book is correct, this will pose no problem for you, and I will wake up tomorrow, healed. . . . You know what, Doug? I won't wake up, tomorrow, healed. Do you know why? Because your faith isn't the truth. Your god isn't real. Your holy book isn't correct. You will try to avoid this test. You will jump through hoops and make excuses. You will simply ignore this challenge, just like you ignore the mountain of evidence contradicting your belief system, every day. This is why I call your position one of purposeful ignorance. The bottom line is your god put this simple test down, and this simple test has NEVER been met. You can win this discussion, Doug. Just put your faith into action and heal me. I will then believe, and you will have saved my soul. I'm waiting . . .

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Lessons learned Chapter 6

Doug:
Hi Chadwick. I would like to say that I really enjoy debating with you. I feel it probably sharpens BOTH of our thinking skills. You're probably thinking that I don't think, but hey, that's very debatable. I do think if more people would start thinking about these kinds of things, the world would indeed be a better place.

Your reliance on the "Cosmos" series may be unfounded. I think I mentioned before that there is a very brilliant REAL scientist out there named James Mccanney who has debunked and shown that the whole Cosmos (new and old) show is junk, tier 2, propaganda driven "science". Look his work up. He is very maligned, and ostracized by mainstream science, which in my eyes, makes me want to look closer at WHAT EXACTLY he is saying. (Much like a Galileo or a Tesla maybe?)

I guess I see now what your point is about later writings being written to "comport to the old prophet's writings" as you say. But I think that, although I am very conspiratorial in my thinking, I can't see all of these different historical writings that were recorded, and archaeologically uncovered over thousands of years being guided and directed to do this (to what end?) By any outside omnipotent, intelligent force except for by a God.

You are so right that there is soooo, so many other things that are going on as far as the age of our earth (as it presents to us). I even told you how I think it is naive how Christians only think about 6 to10 thousand years, when God is eternal. (But, maybe that's really irrelevant to MY little mind.) It's so obvious that there are many hidden away things in archaeology AND the multidimensional aspect (spirit beings, for lack of better words) of our world that OBVIOUSLY exist. (I have experienced some of them myself.)

I guess, what really forms MY beliefs, is when I take into account the very obvious raging battle between good and evil (absolutely a phenomenon that's an undeniable fact.) ...short of taking on a very empty, depressing nihilistic, amoral,or humanistic philosophy, which I refuse to do, then it becomes SO obvious to me that there ARE things bigger than us. Then couple this with the belief that, as a result, there MUST be some kind of clue or "instruction manual" to how our souls are to get through THIS part of our existence, during THIS point of time, in THIS speck of the universe. I believe then that the BIBLE is the most OBVIOUS and Logical choice for me. (For the reasons I have shared.) And I must add that the Bible is NOT contradictory or inconsistent when the aforementioned implied verses are taken in their full context. The Bible is REALLY amazingly consistent from start to finish when you REALLY study it.
Now, when I add in my own personal, experiential emotional experiences with my God , it becomes a no - brainer to me. Where does this incredible emotional component of the human experience come from? I'm sure there is a very lame Darwinian explanation, but I continue in my assertion that the Darwinian model has been totally invalidated, and you would discover this also if you would honestly look at the evidence.

Now this all being said, when you say you were born gay, and no matter how hard you tried, you could NOT make yourself not gay. Well I too was born a wretched sinner and no matter how hard I tried, I could NOT make myself not a wretched sinner.
But, glory be to God, through the Covenant of God with us through the transformational power of JESUS CHRIST I am no longer a wretched sinner in God's eyes, and I have received indeed, help in the form of his promised Holy Spirit, to improve greatly in my striving for his righteousness. I, like all Christians, still sin, but we are forgiven in his eyes and we struggle on day by day just like everyone else. I know, I know this is where you say "good lord, (an interesting choice of words.) I just threw up a little bit in my mouth".
I know you probably believe that being gay and being a sinner are NOT analogous, but MY Bible tells me that sin is sin.

But, I guess we are ultimately all on our own spiritual paths. I am in fact evangelizing to you in the same way as you are to me.
My Bible tells me to do this, I'm just a little curious where YOUR directives are coming from. This is where you answer that you are using your (God given?) Brain. Just joking, kind of.

Now as far as me getting a "mustard seed 's amount of faith " as you quote Jesus. I am working towards that end. Although a mustard seed is very small, it is still a Very REAL, very undeniable physically provable thing, so... easy for Jesus to say.( Him being God I say.

But HERE is God working through me (the best I can do for now ) to heal your type two diabetes :
Look into the work of a Dr. Joel Wallach, he is in fact using what God HAS given HIM to heal this disease every day. Follow his program (it takes a little money, but you Will be healed. I AM SERIOUS LOOK INTO HIS WORK ), or the work of a Dr. Sherri Rodgers to name the Best two that I am aware of.
Your statement that I deny the evidence that contradicts my beliefs , I find laughable, because I find confirmation in my beliefs every single day every where my open eyes look. It's incredible.!
As I refute more and more of your points, my writing gets longer and longer, so I'll stop for now.

Chadwick:
You may be looking around, but you have blinders on, if you believe science supports your beliefs. Once again, I'm waiting to be healed. That's all you need to do and you win. I'm waiting . . .

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