To view this notification widget you need to have JavaScript enabled. This notification widget was easily created with NotifySnack.
Home Tour About Read What's New Help Forums Join Login
My Account
Shop
Save
Support
E
Book
Store
Learn
About
Jesus
  




The HOME for Christian writers!
The Home for Christian Writers!

Forums
Shop & Save to SUPPORT FaithWriters.
Upgrade to SUPPORT FaithWriters.

Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

For those who like to discuss and debate theology. This is a forum for people who enjoy strong and lively debate with people who may not be likeminded. Participants are requested to always treat other opinions with respect.

Moderators: mikeedwards, RedBaron, cori67

User avatar
Come forth
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Innisfail, North Qld, Australia

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby Come forth » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:22 pm

According to your philosophy, we should allow every heresy known to man to infiltrate the church since no one can be sure of anything anyway. Yes?


Absolutely not. Here is a quote from the post you have just read:

There is a grave danger in having an open mind to the beliefs and ideas of how Scripture is interpreted, but there is also a great need for us to be open to hear the Truth. As we explore these thoughts and ideas in a forum such as this we can become the prophetic counsel that leads us deeper into the Light of Truth.


I will refrain from answering any of the other points in respect to Mike's earlier comments; however, I will ask you to read your own posts and think about how they come across.

We can not talk about the opinions of A, C and M without looking at what they teach; and the first two (I've already said I don't know enough about M at this stage) certainly do not seem to reflect the fullness of Scripture. And I am not interested in the doctrines of man and do not believe any post I have ever made can support the idea of embracing any philosophy that comes along.

I haven't got my head around it all yet, but molinism is not just middle knowledge; it is also natural knowledge and free knowledge. To me, I see that we see first in the natural and then in the spiritual (1Cor 15:46) so I see an important need to understand things in the natural so that we can get a deeper understanding in the spiritual. We do not force marriage on anyone, or for that matter should we force anything on anyone else, so free will is an essential part of our make up; and we must always remember that is how we were created, that is one of the most distinct differences between us and animals.

If our heavenly Father created us with free will, for what purpose? Deut 30:19, Php 3:13. And of course we have heaps of Scriptures which say that God chooses us. The task before us is to see all Scripture in light of all of it's Truth. If God gives us choice we have to blend that Truth with the fact that He also chooses, and vice versa of course.

At first appearance molinism appears to attempt to do that.

Blessings, Graham.
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
http://www.shekinahcloud.com/page/page/8464330.htm

User avatar
Come forth
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Innisfail, North Qld, Australia

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby Come forth » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:09 pm

Mike, in the three links you provided the middle one has a problem. It should read

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism ... e-election

Your link, if you want to correct it reads with a .aorg instead of .org

Thanks for these links. Very informative reading and very difficult to argue with Dr. Craig over some of his points. I particularly like this from the first link you provided:

Universal, divine, determinism makes God the author of sin and precludes human responsibility. In contrast to the Molinist view, on the deterministic view even the movement of the human will is caused by God. God moves people to choose evil, and they cannot do otherwise. God determines their choices and makes them do wrong. If it is evil to make another person do wrong, then on this view God is not only the cause of sin and evil, but becomes evil Himself, which is absurd. By the same token, all human responsibility for sin has been removed. For our choices are not really up to us: God causes us to make them. We cannot be responsible for our actions, for nothing we think or do is up to us.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism ... z2RK4YenIb


Right here is my main problem with the Calvinist approach. I accept that many Calvinists claim this is not a fair and reasonable summary of their believes; but it is the only conclusion their claims can lead to.

Still studying; Graham
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
http://www.shekinahcloud.com/page/page/8464330.htm

User avatar
Paula22466
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:12 pm
Location: Southern Ohio

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby Paula22466 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:24 pm

Come forth wrote:
Thanks for these links. Very informative reading and very difficult to argue with Dr. Craig over some of his points. I particularly like this from the first link you provided:

Universal, divine, determinism makes God the author of sin and precludes human responsibility. In contrast to the Molinist view, on the deterministic view even the movement of the human will is caused by God. God moves people to choose evil, and they cannot do otherwise. God determines their choices and makes them do wrong. If it is evil to make another person do wrong, then on this view God is not only the cause of sin and evil, but becomes evil Himself, which is absurd. By the same token, all human responsibility for sin has been removed. For our choices are not really up to us: God causes us to make them. We cannot be responsible for our actions, for nothing we think or do is up to us.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism ... z2RK4YenIb

It's very difficult to argue with Dr. Craig over anything because he is brilliant, but still, wrong (yes I said "wrong")
Calvinism never never never teaches "God moves people to choose evil." I didn't read the link yet, but are you sure that's from Craig? Calvinism never never never teaches "God determines their choices and makes them do wrong." Ridiculous. Calvinism teaches just the opposite - God does not intervene in any way in the lives of the unregenerate, they freely choose evil (which is also what the Bible teaches). I'm going to have to check this out later when I have time, I find it hard to believe Craig wrote this.
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

User avatar
carpenterdaughter
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 7:43 pm
Location: Arkansas, USA

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby carpenterdaughter » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:01 pm

As I sit reading through comments and browsing through Mike's link, I find myself asking a question, "Why am I concerned with this? What IS it about these matters that makes me want to know God's mind so much?" I know what the answer is for me. I know what I believe--and I'm pretty sure that it is based on the Word of God and not my own thinking--because my own thinking would allow for ALL PEOPLE to be ultimately capable of seeing Jesus. It is hard for me to swallow the fact that there are some people who will never, ever choose Jesus and that God allowed them to be born anyway, knowing they would either refuse Him or never hear the gospel. That is a VERY hard truth because I do not want to stand and watch ANYONE be cast into hell. I don't believe that is what God wants, either, but He allows it because He uses the lives of those who won't believe to redeem those He knows will.

Read Romans 9, 10, and 11.

My sons and I have had discussions like this--and, I can tell you that we have had them through tears for people we love that we just cannot persuade. We WANT it to make sense to our human minds because we just cannot imagine the God we know NOT showing mercy, no matter how "far gone" people are. My son has said to me more than once, "Mom, you're having such a hard time because you love people, and you don't want anyone to go to hell, but Mom, you know the Bible says that there will be some cast into outer darkness." We absolutely, do not want that to be true--I don't anyway.

I think the problem we have is realizing what a price God was willing to pay to redeem HIS SHEEP. Not only did He give Jesus and become sin itself for us, but He also endures what He does not want--the condemnation of others--for the life of His Sheep. That's REALLY HARD for me to accept because it sounds so "elitist" or like I'm saying that I am better than another human being. I know I am not. I know full well my own weaknesses and perhaps should be more ashamed of them than someone without Christ because I know what mercy I've been shown. It sounds like I am saying that God is a "respecter" of persons when the Bible says He isn't--I think what that verse means is that He doesn't look at us and choose us based on human righteousness or outward appearances. He chooses us because He knew us before the foundations of the world. We are not our own. We are His children, and because of the love He has for us, we love Him.

Read from II Thessalonians (NKJV):
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Stand Fast

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Again . . . this is really, really hard "stuff" because to believe it means that we must believe that God allowed people to be born, knowing that they would refuse Him and be condemned to hell. I do not know any other way to see it . . .WE KNOW that God hardens hearts Himself. What does that mean? I am not sure . . . it seems, now, to mean that we have to accept that one of the attributes of God is a wrath against sin that we cannot comprehend. Maybe we cannot comprehend it because we are still too close to sin ourselves--living here in this flesh. I don't know . . .

User avatar
Come forth
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Innisfail, North Qld, Australia

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby Come forth » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:30 pm

God does not intervene in any way in the lives of the unregenerate, they freely choose evil (which is also what the Bible teaches).


As I understand Calvinism, God chooses who will be saved and God alone; man's choice has nothing to do with it. To make that choice God must intervene in the life of the unregenerate to regenerate them; the problem is that He then becomes responsible for those who are unregenerate because they can do nothing for their condition themselves.

This is not just my view of Calvinism but the constant argument raised against it by many; including Dr. Craig who very definitely either wrote the comment in question or at least fully endorsed it on his website "Reasonable Faith with William Lane Craig".

The comment above is actually evidence of man's election ability/need. If God is good and all that He created is good and, as stated above, He gave man the ability to choose evil, it must follow that they also were created with the ability to choose good. either that or God is not good and as Dr. Craig points out, that is absurd.

We can't have it both ways, if man is responsible for his own evil because of his own choice, then regeneration must also involve his choice or God is unfair and plays favorites.

Blessings, Graham.
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
http://www.shekinahcloud.com/page/page/8464330.htm

User avatar
carpenterdaughter
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 7:43 pm
Location: Arkansas, USA

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby carpenterdaughter » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Goodness . . .

I REALLY don't want to come across like a "Pharisee" or a person who is pointing to herself and saying how "blessed" I am and how "forsaken" someone else is. Y'all are just going to have to trust that that is not the place I am coming from. If my words sound like that, I can assure you that is not the intent of my heart. BUT, I cannot escape the truth of scripture itself.

God DOES play favorites, Graham. He has "played favorites" throughout the history of mankind. David was a man after His own heart--David committed murder and adultery but was given repentance. God hardened Saul's heart. The Bible says that. I didn't. The "ones" that God has delivered unto Jesus ARE His favorites. (see John 17)

God knowingly gives life here on earth to people that He knows will not choose Him, even when they are given the choice, even when creation itself reveals the Truth. This is hard. Again, I repeat myself, this is hard to accept--because I know that I don't deserve Grace and repentance any more than anyone else, but Jesus called me. Yes, I made a personal choice to accept that Grace, but I never would have, had the Holy Spirit not convicted me of my need for Grace and told me that I was dead in my sins. And . . .God knew before the foundations of the world that I would accept Him. How can we not believe that He knows who will and who won't accept? We don't know who will, but God does . . .

This is hard, also, because it seems as if we have no personal responsibility to obey--but true obedience--the kind that is born out of our love for Him and nothing else--only comes when we have been given mercy, pardon, forgiveness . . .all those things we get upon our "conversion" or "rebirth" or whatever label you want to put on your awakening. And, even then . . .we STILL do not completely obey Him. We do not--not in our flesh. We spend our lives here learning how to walk in the Spirit, instead of in the flesh--therein, is our struggle--that's where God gives us room to make choices.

I think the most important point that should not be lost in all our discussion is that salvation is important. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT--and no one, NO ONE should place his or her eternal security on his or her own will. I think there are probably thousands and thousands of people who are convinced they are "elect" because they have walked an aisle or been baptized or followed some other religious ritual. I am completely convinced that there has to be a point in time when we know that Jesus called us from our "dead" conditions. There has to be a conversion experience or we are still dead in our sins. Jesus said that to Nicodemus in John 3. Maybe this discussion serves a purpose . . .maybe the Lord will, Himself, use it to call someone who has been depending on their own choices, their own behaviors but they never really met the Savior. There HAS to be a meeting, and for there to be a meeting, the Holy Spirit has to make the first move. He does not come and go at our bidding. Jesus said that, too: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8, NKJV)

When Sheep hear the voice of their Shepherd, they come. Jesus said that, too. Technically, we can all be divided into sheep or goats. Some know they are sheep. Some do not yet know they are sheep. And some are goats, and God knows they are goats--but He loves the Sheep and will use the goats to redeem the Sheep and to further His Glory. And, we do not know how to divide people. We are supposed to preach the message of the Shepherd! We're supposed to deliver the message to every man, woman, boy, and girl as if they are all sheep--and depend upon the Holy Spirit to do the heart work within every individual heart. We DO NOT decide who are sheep and who are goats. We may be able to determine "goat-like" behavior and sometimes separate ourselves from it--and we're going to recognize it in ourselves, too--but, we are not privy to the Book of Life like God is.

Please, if I have said anything that goes against the Word of God--PLEASE correct me. I do not want to speak anything but the truth.

User avatar
mikeedwards
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:49 pm

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby mikeedwards » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:45 am

This is a big part of the discussion. Sometimes it appears that God does have favorites but yet He says over and over again that he is not partial, does not show favoritism and that to do so is a sin.

Look here and at the cross references on the right. http://bible.cc/acts/10-34.htm

David, Abraham, Moses all appear from a cursory view to be favored. One important point to remember is that God only has sinners to work with. So is God favoring anyone since he uses man to get his work done here?

The other point is that it was about their faith or heart for God not their lack of sin.

Here is a verse that shows God is not partial.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. Romans 2:12 and I can think of 2 other verse that say the same thing.

Personally I think that God gives us evidence in creation that he is not partial all of the time. Gravity does not respect persons yet it is essential for our survival. None of Gods natural laws respect persons. You simply get in alignment with the truth of the natural laws or perish. I believe the verse above says it is exactly the same with Gods moral law.

You can replace God with the word Truth and you get "Truth is not a respecter of persons". "Truth is not partial to non-truth".

God Bless, Mike
We need God's Grace because of God's Truth.

User avatar
Paula22466
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:12 pm
Location: Southern Ohio

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby Paula22466 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:18 pm

Come forth wrote:
As I understand Calvinism, God chooses who will be saved and God alone; man's choice has nothing to do with it. To make that choice God must intervene in the life of the unregenerate to regenerate them;

This is true. We are chosen. And this is biblical. You know it's biblical, Graham. When I said, "God does not intervene in the life of the unregenerate, I was referring to the blurb you posted which said God "causes men to do evil," - God does not cause men to do evil, they choose it.

the problem is that He then becomes responsible for those who are unregenerate because they can do nothing for their condition themselves.

Please explain to me how God is responsible for the unregenerate who FREELY choose evil, God does not intervene and cause them to sin. If you mean God "should" intervene, then you are saying that God owes everyone salvation because He gives it to some. If you mean that, you don't understand grace and you ought to become a universalist.

This is not just my view of Calvinism but the constant argument raised against it by many; including Dr. Craig who very definitely either wrote the comment in question or at least fully endorsed it on his website "Reasonable Faith with William Lane Craig".

This is the constant argument raised against calvinism, I've used it myself. The problem with it, is it doesn't make sense in light of the numerous biblical texts which clearly call believers the "elect," says right out that we are "chosen" (before the foundation of the world) and faith is all of God and none of us, lest we have something to boast about.

The comment above is actually evidence of man's election ability/need. If God is good and all that He created is good and, as stated above, He gave man the ability to choose evil, it must follow that they also were created with the ability to choose good. either that or God is not good and as Dr. Craig points out, that is absurd.


Here, you say man is elected - do you know what that means? (of course you do). Man does have the ability to choose good and evil - but he will ALWAYS choose evil if God does not intervene (this is biblical). Graham, this is what happened in the fall - it's why we call it the "fall." Adam, our spokesman, so to speak, sinned - so now we all sin. Adam's transgression is imputed to all just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers. We are not each of us "little Adam's" walking around able to overcome the curse - which is why we needed the second Adam - Christ.

The elect are not chosen because they are favored by God, they are favored by God because they are chosen to be a gift to His Son. The chosen are not chosen because of anything good in us, we are chosen in spite of the bad - this is GRACE. If God were a respecter of persons, your ideas may make sense since then He would be choosing on the basis of WHO CHOSE HIM. If anyone is able to say, "I am saved because I chose to believe," they have something to boast about (whether they would boast, the cause is still there). Scripture is clear - the elect are chosen because God IS a good God who could have left all of us to die in our sins but instead chose some for Christ's sake.
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

User avatar
beaedwards
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby beaedwards » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:49 pm

Wow and wow some more. You two precious sisters have bowled me over with your profound insights into this subject. Many of your thoughts have been my thoughts and I join you in awe of His grace and mercy for any of us.

Have I told you lately how much I adore and appreciate you both...

By the way, love and appreciate you too Graham, I'm just having a girl moment :wink:

I keep thinking of Paul's speculation in Romans 9:20-23 He asks "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--"

It inevitably sets me back a few steps whenever I dig through or I go beyond scripture (commentaries sermons etc.) to attempt to figure out an acceptable explanation for predestination, wrath, and hell.
It simply hurts-however I have found comfort in the following from Allister Bigg who put it so very succinctly in a sermon I heard years ago-
He said:
"It is because God's wrath is real that His mercy is relevant. Unless you have a real wrath, a real anger, the Biblical concepts of longsuffering, mercy, and of grace are robbed of their meaning."

I prefer to not think of my heavenly Father as wrathful however scripture is clear that it is one of His attributes. Coequal and coexistent with love, grace and mercy. Our limited knowledge of the potential beauty and excellence of that very attribute is colored perhaps by CD's suggestion of our closeness to sin and of our wretchedness and absolute poverty without Him.

The two comments (among many) which stood out to me most were:

CD wrote

I think the problem we have is realizing what a price God was willing to pay to redeem HIS SHEEP. Not only did He give Jesus and become sin itself for us, but He also endures what He does not want--the condemnation of others--for the life of His Sheep. That's REALLY HARD for me to accept because it sounds so "elitist" or like I'm saying that I am better than another human being. I know I am not. I know full well my own weaknesses and perhaps should be more ashamed of them than someone without Christ because I know what mercy I've been shown. It sounds like I am saying that God is a "respecter" of persons when the Bible says He isn't--I think what that verse means is that He doesn't look at us and choose us based on human righteousness or outward appearances. He chooses us because He knew us before the foundations of the world. We are not our own. We are His children, and because of the love He has for us, we love Him.


Paula wrote
The elect are not chosen because they are favored by God, they are favored by God because they are chosen to be a gift to His Son. The chosen are not chosen because of anything good in us, we are chosen in spite of the bad - this is GRACE. If God were a respecter of persons, your ideas may make sense since then He would be choosing on the basis of WHO CHOSE HIM. If anyone is able to say, "I am saved because I chose to believe," they have something to boast about (whether they would boast, the cause is still there). Scripture is clear - the elect are chosen because God IS a good God who could have left all of us to die in our sins but instead chose some for Christ's sake.[/quote]

I shall not add anything to your beautiful descriptions of mercy and grace.

User avatar
Paula22466
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:12 pm
Location: Southern Ohio

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby Paula22466 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:48 pm

beaedwards wrote:I keep thinking of Paul's speculation in Romans 9:20-23 He asks "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--"

Exactly Amen and Hallelujah. Paul KNEW what the objections would be, which is why he asks, "But who are you ...."

It inevitably sets me back a few steps whenever I dig through or I go beyond scripture (commentaries sermons etc.) to attempt to figure out an acceptable explanation for predestination, wrath, and hell.
It simply hurts-however I have found comfort in the following from Allister Bigg who put it so very succinctly in a sermon I heard years ago-
He said:
"It is because God's wrath is real that His mercy is relevant. Unless you have a real wrath, a real anger, the Biblical concepts of longsuffering, mercy, and of grace are robbed of their meaning."

Alistair Begg is a wonderful, godly teacher. I know exactly what you mean, about the hurt, about the questions, about the the complete awe. Maybe there is no acceptable explanation to us, but because we know God is good, we continue searching and seeking in faith - but NEVER allowing our own confusion with the Potter to cloud our eyes from what Scripture is clearly saying. The journey from Arminianism to Calvinism is long and painful, but it inevitably leads to God's grace. So we say, Why Me?


CD wrote
I know I am not. I know full well my own weaknesses and perhaps should be more ashamed of them than someone without Christ because I know what mercy I've been shown. It sounds like I am saying that God is a "respecter" of persons when the Bible says He isn't--I think what that verse means is that He doesn't look at us and choose us based on human righteousness or outward appearances. He chooses us because He knew us before the foundations of the world. We are not our own. We are His children, and because of the love He has for us, we love Him.

Perfect. When we come to realize there is absolutely nothing in us worth redeeming, that we would never have chosen righteousness on our own, we get a glimpse of just how merciful He is.

Bea, I love you my sister! And CD...I am so glad you joined this discussion! And like Bea, I appreciate all of you, even those who think I'm a big arrogant meanie. There's a "fire in my belly" for the Word of God and I just cant help it.
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

User avatar
Come forth
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
Pencil 6 (300-499 Posts)
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Innisfail, North Qld, Australia

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby Come forth » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:46 pm

I honestly believe, sadly, that these sort of discussions will always leave me feeling as if none of us are really prepared to challenge our preconceived ideas. And, by the way, that includes me as I struggle to see many things from the point of views presented.

There is a mile of difference between us. And a thousand miles between God 'having' favorites and 'playing' favorites; which is totally against Scripture (and I sort of feel this is so obvious that quoting Scripture on the subject is becoming a waste as everyone simply places their own interpretations on them).

How we can deny the 'choosing' power of man (or the choosing power of God for that matter) leaves me dumbfounded. Your free will was a gift of God when He created you. Literally hundreds of Scriptures testify to the fact that you must choose to serve Him, that you must overcome the carnal nature and that you will eventually face judgment based on those choices.

The 'grace' message, which I see as a natural offshoot of all of this, is filled with danger.

I'm sorry if I come across strongly, but I'm confused at how some have reached conclusions based on things I have said. I'll take a leaf out of Paula's book. I've tried to avoid this because I have always tried to not say things like this; but Calvinism is wrong; that's right, wrong. (See Paula's comments above and see that I am only following her example).

At best it minimizes the awesome creature that God created and gave dominion to. At worst, and I believe this to be true, it is heresy and part of the greater deception that God is allowing to fall upon the church in these last days. (Luke 21:8, Gal 6:7, Eph 4:14, 2Th 2:3).

I'm probably going to regret this post; but I take comfort from the fact that I was not the first to start telling people they were wrong. I love all of you and respect your opinions; but the whole of the Word will never support a conclusion that determinism is theologically sound.

I find some of the questions aimed at me by you Paula to almost reflect the fact that you did not even attempt to read what I was really saying. You take things out of context and often insinuate, by proxy, that I am dumb.

Yes, you are right, I do know Graham that it is Biblical that God chooses. Did you know Paula, of course you do (look above and see this is the way you talk to me), that it is also Biblical that you must also choose Him; Deu 30:19.

I'm sorry that I have eventually reacted to you Paula, but I am tired of the way you come across.

Blessings, Graham
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
http://www.shekinahcloud.com/page/page/8464330.htm

User avatar
carpenterdaughter
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 7:43 pm
Location: Arkansas, USA

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby carpenterdaughter » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:20 am

First, I would just like to express my gratitude to all of you and to the Lord for having a place where I can come and discuss these things. It is good to hear from each other and to examine our beliefs and measure them against the Word of God, and sometimes other people point out to me scriptures that I have never slowed down enough to digest. It is good to know that I am not alone. It is good to know that there are others who have these kinds of "deep" questions. It is good to discuss them in a safe place, first, because if you share your faith enough, you may be asked to discuss these types of things "out there." If we don't have some ground to stand on in our own hearts for these kinds of questions, we will not be equipped to defend our faith "out there" and might even be subject to doubting it in ourselves when questions come from "out there." We need to be ready to answer the question, "What does your God do about people who have never had a chance to hear about Jesus? How is that fair? How is it fair for God to condemn to hell a person who has never heard the message of the gospel?"

People will use that question. They will use it to deflect their own guilt and give them an excuse to reject Jesus and explain Him away, and the enemy will use it to make you question your own belief in God's goodness. We do not live in a contained environment where we control all the questions and all the answers. We have God's Word to stand on, and we have to say what the Word says. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO MAN cometh to the Father but by me."If we cannot stand on that, even when it is uncomfortable and leaves us even unable to fully explain the purposes of our God, then all we are giving the world is more of man's reasoning and man's thinking and man's justification of man.

When I have been asked that question, I have to answer with that verse. We avoid getting to that place. We avoid it like the plague because the only answer that we have for it that is plain and clear in scripture is that they will die and go to hell. We try to defend God against that truth with our reasoning, and we are sometimes met by people equally capable of reason. When we get in a battle of "wits" like that, people are going to choose their own reason because that is what makes them feel safe. We are not supposed to be like that. We walk by faith and not by sight. When I get to that question with others and they say, "And you still believe that your God is good?" I say, "Yes, I do." I tell them that I do not have all the answers and do not have the ability to explain all His purposes, but I still know His goodness and His love and His mercy and believe that He sent His Son to die for the souls of men. The only way to walk away from a battle of reason with peace in your own heart is to walk away in your faith and not your reason--at least that is what has proven true for me. Our commitment to Jesus MUST be something that is unexplainable by the mind of man or else it can be explained away by man . . .just throwing that out there.

I find comfort in this. WE DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING. When John was getting his "revelations," there is a chunk that God showed him and told him not to reveal to anyone else. In fact, he told him to write it down and then eat it. I don't remember what chapter that is in, but it is there--you'll have to read and find it. I know what I hope is included in that. I desperately hope for much, mostly for the sake of those who cannot find it in their own reasons to believe and see Jesus for who He is. I don't think that God is withholding this knowledge from us because He is unfair or unjust. I believe He's done it for OUR GOOD. Too often, we forget that God has a deadly enemy, and that the war we fight is really against evil. God has always been about ending evil--not ending mankind. We don't know all the battle plans because we would give them away too easily. (That is my thinking, so do with it what you will.)

I also take comfort in an exchange between Jesus and Peter. Read the last chapter of John's gospel. Before Jesus was ascended, he met with and charged Peter with a mission. "Feed my sheep." He told Peter three times that was his mission. He also told Peter that he would die for his faith. When Peter became curious about what would happen to John, Jesus more or less told him that was none of his business. John 21:22 (NKJV) Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

So . . . there must be a point when we leave off these "wonderings" and focus more on following Jesus. We trust in who God is and place our faith in that. Honestly, I know that I have these questions because of my love and concern for others--and that love and concern is what compels me to tell the truth of the gospel, but there is a point where I tell what has been given to me to tell and leave what happens in God's hands. I follow Jesus. That is our charge. "Feed my sheep."

We do it, praying that God give us Grace to see and courage to obey. Most of all, we go in hope, begging for eyes to see every opportunity He puts in front of us--and that He give us opportunity. Being part of the "elect" does not automatically mean that this life is going to be easy for us. Typically, it is quite the contrary . . . we fellowship with Christ as Sons and Daughters of the Most High God--but we also fellowship in His suffering. That is biblical, too.

User avatar
mikeedwards
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:49 pm

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby mikeedwards » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:02 am

Great post Frankie (CD)! We need to not major on the minors and let them lead to division. This is all Bea's fault for posting this topic. :D

We all want grace but do we all want to give grace? According to the Word the actions are inseparable. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
We need God's Grace because of God's Truth.

User avatar
carpenterdaughter
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
Pencil 4 (150-199 Posts)
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 7:43 pm
Location: Arkansas, USA

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby carpenterdaughter » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:10 am

Bottom line: preach Christ and Him crucified--there is NO OTHER GOSPEL whereby men must be saved.

Preach it and sheep will hear and come. Jesus said so.

User avatar
beaedwards
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Calvinism, Armenianism, Molinism

Postby beaedwards » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:47 am

Amen and Amen! CD

I'm sorry that this post took a turn south :? for a bit.

Paula and Graham please repent, humble yourselves - hug and make up!!

I was contemplating why we humans desire to have our theology, the only theology. When I studied Calvinism v. Armenianism years ago at Moody I believed myself to be of the reformed faith and any Armenian was a heretic :roll: .

My, my have I learned a lot since then. And unlearned a lot if that makes any sense.

I have learned that the Rock I must stand on is contained in scripture and that I am called to seek the Truth meekly, humbly and with the Spirit's guidance.

I am reminded of a several brothers and sisters in Christ- one an especially dear friend, author, and theologian (I consider them so, although they have booted me from the family) who are King James Bible only folks -I hate to admit I veered off the road into Mike's proverbial ditch with that one :lol: - closing our minds to revealed knowledge is a dangerous path as we are all being sanctified from glory to glory and our vision is being clarified on a daily basis, or at least I hope so.

What I'm trying to say is that I have come to the realization that to call myself a Calvinist, an Armenian or a Molinist takes away from my ability to glean Truth from each of these systems while remaining true to my stance on His Word and Truth. In other words I am a C,A, and M.

Not to pick and choose from each what makes me the most comfortable but to take from each the Truth as it lines up with scripture no matter how troubling.

I think CD said it best when she stated that to have this forum a safe place to discuss these difficult questions is invaluable in preparing us to be 'out there' - where there is our real enemy and our actual battle- other than that pesky battle with our flesh. That's another topic for another day.

I suppose that's why I posted this topic in the first place- to glean from the wealth of knowledge in the FW's arm of Christ.

Oh yeah back to my original question. Why do we feel the need to take such a strong stand and label ourselves C, A, M or KJV only...

Perhaps it's because we get comfortable in our little theological boat and any other systems rock our complacent behinds and we find it necessary to row again-just sayin....

PreviousNext

Return to Theology Discussion and Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


© MeasurelessMedia. All rights reservedTerms of Service



Jesus - True for You But not for Me      Website Builder     Build Website     Is Jesus God?    
Does God exist?     Build a writers website     Does truth exist?     Website online in minutes