Man is unable to choose to believe on his own!

[evangelist-1]

Mike, I am impressed with your discernment ... seriously!

I am quite deeply involved with searching out spiritual Truth,
for myself and for the benefit of others.

Something that I've come to see fairly recently is the fact that
the Lord "somewhat hides" some spiritual Truths for His reasons
(I have a list of 6 so far, with reasons).

Understanding things like this can really minimize (or eliminate)
believers' confusion and frustration concerning certain doctrines.

Many of my spiritual understandings simply OFFEND others who have
been taught that certain doctrines are erroneous (or worse, from Satan).

Many believers complain that the churches are weak and in shambles.
IMO, being taught some deeper doctrinal Truths wouldn't hurt any!

[iRoswell]

Mike, I am impressed with your discernment ... seriously!

I am quite deeply involved with searching out spiritual Truth,
for myself and for the benefit of others.

Something that I've come to see fairly recently is the fact that
the Lord "somewhat hides" some spiritual Truths for His reasons
(I have a list of 6 so far, with reasons).

Understanding things like this can really minimize (or eliminate)
believers' confusion and frustration concerning certain doctrines.

Many of my spiritual understandings simply OFFEND others who have
been taught that certain doctrines are erroneous (or worse, from Satan).

Many believers complain that the churches are weak and in shambles.
IMO, being taught some deeper doctrinal Truths wouldn't hurt any!

I know you are not talking to me so... You can just ignore this if you want .

I love the fact that God has given us a hard copy of His Word. Those religions and cults that allow for extra-Biblical revelations, ones that do not match God's written Word, find themselves ending up further and further from Scripture.

But having His Word, I've found the more I search it, the more things the Holy Spirit teaches me through it. The less I search it, my understanding and learning comes to a halt.

You made the comment that believers are talking about weak churches. The problem is not the church, or even the pastor of that church. The issue is the people attending those churches. As believers, we're not supposed to be relying, solely, on a pastor. It is our responsibility to study the Scriptures daily. It's supposed to be more important than even food.

Another issue is the level of understanding someone has. We are all at differing levels depending upon where God has brought us. Forcing something on someone that God has not revealed to them through His Word, is never a good idea. God teaches us, through His Word, by His Spirit.
That's why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:2, "I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready..."

We have to be careful, only teaching as the Spirit leads us. There have been several times that somebody has shared something with me that God has shown them, and it made no sense to me. Yet, days later, I'm searching the Word and, bam, there it is. I sit there and smile, knowing that the Scripture has been there for several thousand years and yet, I'm only just now seeing it.

I do have to say, you don't seem so angry now that the red letters are gone .

[mikeedwards]

Evangelist,

You still did not answer my question. Why is this important to you?

[Paula22466]

never-mind

[evangelist-1]

I have ran into this quite a bit lately and I have had some even disagree with our Jesus page where we offer Christ as a choice they need to make Some would say as you are that we cannot make the choice because of our fallen state. But I like to point out that it is always offered as a choice in scripture. For example every time anyone including Jesus said repent or perish it is presented as a choice to the hearer. Some use the stand you are taking to not share their faith claiming who is called will come no matter what. So what is the point of telling anyone. Some use these scripture to worry about their own salvation.
I look at it a little differently. I cannot meet Gods standard. I cannot earn a gift. If I am not saved there is nothing I can do about it. But one thing I can do is to tell others about Christ. When I take this stand I realize I have forgotten about myself, which is what Jesus told us to do. So I am still curious as to why this is important to you?

Perhaps, I've been sent as a confirmation to those presenting differing opinions to you.
Please excuse the red - I know you're not angry, and neither is Santa Claus.

Yes, everyone needs to be very open to choosing Jesus!
But, I've met 2 people (whom I trust) who said they have tried very hard,
but just cannot believe in the gospel, etc.
And I've known several who get very angry with people who "refuse" to believe in Jesus, etc.

IMO, and there are several Scriptures which teach:
One just is unable to choose Jesus on his/her own ... without God calling them first.
And this is one of the spiritual Truths that is "somewhat hidden" in Scripture for God's reasons.

Another thread, which IMO many people need to read, concerns the Scriptural fact
that Almighty God has revealed Himself as being 3 Persons or Manifestations.
MANY are on Christian forums complaining about the Trinity.
And Muslims laugh themselves sick at Christians because we say God had a Son.

[mikeedwards]

You still did not say why this means so much to you. Why all of the chatter? What is your personal concern over this matter? Are you concerned about your own salvation?

Evangelist wrote -


Yes, everyone needs to be very open to choosing Jesus!
But, I've met 2 people (whom I trust) who said they have tried very hard,
but just cannot believe in the gospel, etc.

I would ask what is is about the gospel that they cannot believe?

But before I would even ask that, I would ask do they believe God exists? If they say "no" which is highly likely, then in my opinion skipping way ahead to the gospel or anything in the Bible is futile.

If they say "no", I have come to learn that they are simply suppressing the truth like it states in Romans. The evidence for God's existence is overwhelming. So overwhelming that the Bible does not seek to prove it. The Bible simplys presents Gods existence as a well known fact. The problem is most people have never looked at the evidence. They really do not want to see any evidence and to justify not looking they claim it is all made up and biased. The truth is they are more comfortable chasing temporary feelings that come with denial than finding truth. Truth is not always comfortable.

I used to get into discussions with people about the Bible to find out they do not even believe in God. Today I won't talk about all the problems they perceive with the bits and pieces they have heard about the Bible. Writen late, contradicts, religion is the scourage of mankind and on and on they rail. Then when I ask them if they would believe if it could be proven true beyond a reasonable doubt, they usually say "no".

If they said "yes" I would go back to square one and ask them if they believe truth exists. If they did I would go to Gods existence. If they finally realized God's existence is an absolute necessity based on the evidence, we would look at the different beliefs and see which one has the most evidential support. Then they could make a reasonable decision. If their decision was to still not make a decision, they have made a decision to reject Christianity.

Evangislist said - And I've known several who get very angry with people who "refuse" to believe in Jesus, etc.

Believers are humans too. I have seen this and I have experienced feelings like this when I started sharing Jesus. I think many believers walk around with a chip on their shoulder or under a persecution complex. I did for awhile and it can still rise up. You see not many people want to talk about Jesus, even many professed Christians. So if a Christian is one who does share their faith I think sometimes they can be ready for battle before they start to talk. They really should not but this often comes from past experiences. The important thing is that they share the truth. The important thing for the hearer is to realize that truth or a lie can come from the bully on the corner or the homeless guy in the gutter. It can come from the scientist or the preacher. Just because it comes passionately and filled with fervor and not neatly wrapped with a bow on it does not mean it is not true. The only way to discover the truth is to follow the evidence. Not doing so make man suceptable to sharply dressed con men. They know man looks at the surface and that is how they take him for a ride.

[evangelist-1]

You still did not say why this means so much to you.
... What is your personal concern over this matter?

The OP is just one topic of many that I have a special interest in at the moment.
It leads into ... then how can one possibly be saved?
I have things to discuss, to learn, and to teach.
Do you think members would like to carry on with this topic in the OP,
or move on to something else?

[mikeedwards]

How can one be possibly saved. And your answer is?

[Come forth]

First, thank you for removing the confusion of red ink (which as a writer I actually love in the right context) and even if it is my problem, I appreciate feeling that this topic and thread is more approachable. Thank you.

The fact that there are deep understanding is Scripture goes without even needing proof. However, Prov 25:2, Ps 42:7, Col 2:17 and Heb 8:5; in Proverbs 25 the Hebrew word for 'matter' is "Dabar' and in English is translated as 'Word', so God has hidden Himself in His Word and it is our glory as Kings and Priests to search Him out within it.

However, the clear and constant message of Scripture is also still 100% truth and no 'hidden message' is true if it contradicts the clear message of Scripture. And the clearest message we begin with is John 4:16, the only way to the Father is through the Son.

Mike asked, and I now also ask,

How can one be possibly saved. And your answer is?

Blessings, Graham.

[evangelist-1]

How can one be possibly saved. And your answer is?

IMO, God Himself must make the first move ... God's gift of grace-faith-salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

And I especially do like these repetitive explanations of Jesus ...

“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me
I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” (John 6:39)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
“It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” (John 6:45)
“And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me
unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” (John 10:29)
“... as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life
to as many as You have given Him.” (John 17:2)
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me,
for they are Yours.” (John 17:9)
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am,
that they may behold My glory which You have given Me” (John 17:24)
“Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.” (Matthew 15:13)

[mikeedwards]

Certainly our salvation is totally in Gods hands and God made a very dramatic and final move on the cross. So where does that leave us? What can we do to be saved?

[Come forth]

God [i]has already[i] made the first move; in two ways actually. The first was called the Cross and the second was when He brought our attention to it. He has called our name already, we do not need to wait for Him to make a move but can now make our move in response.

Satan himself could easily cut and paste millions of Scriptures onto this thread, but ask his opinion of Jesus and the truth would either be revealed or avoided.

What's our response to Jesus and what's our opinion, spoken from the heart?

[tomoral]

Satan himself could easily cut and paste millions of Scriptures onto this thread, but ask his opinion of Jesus and the truth would either be revealed or avoided.

'


Hallelujah!

[evangelist-1]

Certainly our salvation is totally in Gods hands and God made a very dramatic and
final move on the cross. So where does that leave us? What can we do to be saved?

IMO, with several good Scriptures, sound reasoning, spiritual discernment/revelation(?) ...
I am persuaded that God must move first, giving His gift of grace-faith-salvation
to whomever He chooses (He is the potter and fashions all kinds of good and bad vessels, etc.)
So, now we have a group of born-agains, as I call them.

Next up, these blessed individuals really need to heed the MANY warnings, which are
given by Jesus in the gospels (and Rev 2-3) and given to the churches in the epistles!
Those who really co-operate with being sanctified by the Holy Spirit,
and end up being overcomers, will be saved.

This is just my opinion from various sources.
I treasure everyone's comments on all of the above ... Thanks!

[evangelist-1]

Sorry, can't get used to this editor.