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My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

For those who like to discuss and debate theology. This is a forum for people who enjoy strong and lively debate with people who may not be likeminded. Participants are requested to always treat other opinions with respect.

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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby Shann » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:39 pm

I usually don't jump into these discussions because my illness has messed with my memory and I feel that most people are way above my head in theology but I have a question that I have never been able to give a good answer to.

When Jesus came, he wiped out many of the no-nos that were given as law in the Old testament. The examples i think of are now it's okay to eat pork and lobster, but in the OT it was against the laws given. Another example is a woman who is menstruating. Then if you even brushed up against her you were considered defiled and had to do all these things to cleanse yourself.

So where is the line drawn? Then it was perfectly acceptable to be in a polygamous relationship and men had concubines where today we see that as a bigger transgression as the previously mentioned lying.

I hesitate to ask because it shows my ignorance and i do believe that one's sexuality is determined by something in the brain or DNA Much like a Down's Syndrome child we can ask why would God allow that? We have human brains so I think it's hard to answer questions like that.

I do worry that people judge the person and I don't think it's right. i will never know what it is like inside a homosexual's mind. I'll never know what it is like to be a black man in America (or any man) so I can only rely on what they tell me they experience. From people I have talked with many know from early childhood that they are attracted to the opposite sex. I know for years homosexuality was labeled as a mental disease in the Medical Handbook of Psychiatric Disorders.

All that aside, i guess i'm simply asking where in the Bible does it specify which OT laws are no longer enforced because of Jesus? I know Paul mentions the food laws somewhere but I can't wrap my feeble mind about where it is/
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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby Come forth » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:09 pm

There are some excellent conversations going on here that could fill three or four different threads, each with it's own theme; homosexuality, polygamy, the origin of sin, the theology of free choice, etc. etc.

I am not against homosexuality any more than I am ready to be against someone who throws an angry fit, tells a lie, spends their life living as a victim or has negative attitudes. But I can not deny that the death of Christ upon the Cross was to set me, and anyone else who chooses to accept it, free from all the things that bind us in life. Our Lord's death was not only (may I even say was not mostly) about paying the due price for our sins, but was about a reconciliation with the Father; a returning to the fullness of relationship with God. I'm not saying the price was not to pay for our sin, but that the motive was to be able to welcome us home.

I can not even begin to imagine that this fullness of relationship with One who calls Himself such things as Love, Truth, Understanding, Holy, Righteous, Creator, Father, Healer (an impossible list to complete) could include such things as remaining a liar, a thief, a bigot or a homosexual.

In a loving and honest parent/child relationship, lies, theft and all of these other things have to disappear. The Law actually reveals His character and His love for us, just as your rules and expectations for your children reflect your character and love for them (or lack of as the case may be for many). Once grown and mature the rules are no longer needed to be laid down because they have simply become our character and reflect our loving relationship with each other.

The Law of the Old Testament was never, ever in any way changed by Jesus. If He broke one single one of the OT Laws (the very Law of God) He could not have died a sinless death and was not the Messiah. What He changed was the Traditions of Man (called the Oral Law) which had come out of the different sects misunderstanding its true purpose and meaning. (Mat 15:3).

But I fail to address the original question of this thread:

Should we hope that the Supreme Court strikes it down which could put biblical prouncements about end times at odds with the decision, or should we hope that there's a majority vote for it, thereby confirming Scripture.


I personally belief (and accept that many may not agree) that our role in prayer is never to change God's will or plan; "Thy will be done here on earth as it is..." comes to mind. But I must pray for all to come into alignment with His Word, which can sometimes seem contradictory. I pray that the sanctuary of marriage in accordance to God's Word will remain unchanged by the world's courts (a sanctity which never included same sex marriages, polygamy or divorce Mat 19:8). However, I accept what will ever happen as being part of God's will because, in the end, He is in control of all things.

Blessings, Graham
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby Paula22466 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:27 pm

Shann wrote:
When Jesus came, he wiped out many of the no-nos that were given as law in the Old testament. The examples i think of are now it's okay to eat pork and lobster, but in the OT it was against the laws given. Another example is a woman who is menstruating. Then if you even brushed up against her you were considered defiled and had to do all these things to cleanse yourself.


Shann, you ask some good questions. I'll try to answer in a brief way, but much detail could be given. Whole books have been written to answer this question.

There were many "laws" given to the Jews, and only to the Jews. Such as cultural, (how to engage with other human beings) judicial, (how to deal with crime) and dietary laws, plus many more. These types of rules and regulations were given to the Jews to govern their everyday lives.

Then it was perfectly acceptable to be in a polygamous relationship and men had concubines


Nowhere in the Bible does it condone marriage to more than one woman, although God did allow it for a time. Just as He has allowed sin of all types down through the ages. Many people believe because Bible heroes like David and Solomon had many wives, that God must have approved, but He did not. As a matter of fact, if we study the trouble in these men's lives we find the source of much of it was the many women. God never changed His ordinance in Genesis of marriage being between one man and one woman.(which is why there is no such thing as gay marriage)

All that aside, i guess i'm simply asking where in the Bible does it specify which OT laws are no longer enforced because of Jesus?

Putting aside the societal laws given only to the Jews, and speaking of God's Law in terms of morality - these laws have never changed. Jesus repeats each of the ten commandments in the NT except for the Sabbath Law, because He is now our Sabbath rest.

God's moral laws were given to be a mirror. To show us just how evil we are, and how much we are in need of a Savior. It also reflects just how perfect God is and reveals how different (holy) He is than us. By God's moral laws we learn what pleases Him and should live in such a way to please Him (Jesus said "Keep my commandments.")

The "line" as you say, came when Christ lived a perfect life and fulfilled (filled up, made perfect, not voided) every single law of God. Because of His sinless sacrifice, the penalty we deserve for breaking God's Law has been paid. (you probably know this but I'm trying to tie it together for you) So, those who are in Christ will not be held accountable for breaking God's law as unbelievers will. It's not that God's law was ever made void, it's that Christians have a way of escape from the death penalty.

I know I'm hurrying and skipping a bunch of stuff, but hopefully this will help you a bit. Great question!
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby iRoswell » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:06 pm

What excellent replies to some very good questions. I'm so glad I found FaithWriters and its forums.

Romans is an excellent book that points out many of these topics. Pay special attention to chapter seven which deals with why the law exists to begin with.

The law helps us see that we are all lawbreakers. It doesn't matter which law we break, it only matters that it is broken. The penalty for breaking the law is eternal death. Revelations calls it the second death, the lake of fire. James 2:10 shows us that by breaking even one law, we become guilty and therefore fall under the penalty of sin. But how many have only broken one law? Add them up and I'm quite certain we would all be surprised at how much we have sinned against God.

By Jesus dying on the cross, He gives us a choice. Either we take the penalty upon ourselves, or allow Him to take the penalty for us. By our turning away from the lifestyle of sin, and placing our trust in Him and His redemptive work, the Father accepts His payment for our sins.

Once that happens, we have God's promise, that we become a new creation. That our old lifestyle does not rule over us any longer. He then begins the process of sanctifying us, making us holy. I know that in my life, I have seen a progression of weeding out the old life. I am becoming more sensitive to the things God hates, and beginning to love the things He loves. The Holy Spirit guides us through this process.

When I step back to look at God and His mercies, I am overwhelmed! The Creator, stepped into our world, and took upon Himself the very punishment that I deserve!!!
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me."
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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby Paula22466 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:58 pm

iRoswell wrote:What excellent replies to some very good questions. I'm so glad I found FaithWriters and its forums.

And we are so glad to be found! :mrgreen:

When I step back to look at God and His mercies, I am overwhelmed! The Creator, stepped into our world, and took upon Himself the very punishment that I deserve!!!

You're enthusiasm for our Lord is quite refreshing. There is nothing more exciting than being in step with Him, which makes me wonder why so many Christians are grumpy, irritable, sticks in the mud.
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby iRoswell » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:20 pm

Paula22466 wrote:
iRoswell wrote:What excellent replies to some very good questions. I'm so glad I found FaithWriters and its forums.

And we are so glad to be found! :mrgreen:

When I step back to look at God and His mercies, I am overwhelmed! The Creator, stepped into our world, and took upon Himself the very punishment that I deserve!!!

You're enthusiasm for our Lord is quite refreshing. There is nothing more exciting than being in step with Him, which makes me wonder why so many Christians are grumpy, irritable, sticks in the mud.


The secret to true happiness is found in Lamentations 3:22-23;

"The faithful love of the Lord never ends!
His mercies never cease.
Great is His faithfulness;
His mercies begin afresh each morning."

Just to know that His mercies begin afresh every morning... Wow, how can you not get excited about that!!!
Last edited by iRoswell on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby Shann » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:36 pm

Paula22466 wrote:
Shann wrote:
When Jesus came, he wiped out many of the no-nos that were given as law in the Old testament. The examples i think of are now it's okay to eat pork and lobster, but in the OT it was against the laws given. Another example is a woman who is menstruating. Then if you even brushed up against her you were considered defiled and had to do all these things to cleanse yourself.


Shann, you ask some good questions. I'll try to answer in a brief way, but much detail could be given. Whole books have been written to answer this question.

There were many "laws" given to the Jews, and only to the Jews. Such as cultural, (how to engage with other human beings) judicial, (how to deal with crime) and dietary laws, plus many more. These types of rules and regulations were given to the Jews to govern their everyday lives.

Then it was perfectly acceptable to be in a polygamous relationship and men had concubines


Nowhere in the Bible does it condone marriage to more than one woman, although God did allow it for a time. Just as He has allowed sin of all types down through the ages. Many people believe because Bible heroes like David and Solomon had many wives, that God must have approved, but He did not. As a matter of fact, if we study the trouble in these men's lives we find the source of much of it was the many women. God never changed His ordinance in Genesis of marriage being between one man and one woman.(which is why there is no such thing as gay marriage)

All that aside, i guess i'm simply asking where in the Bible does it specify which OT laws are no longer enforced because of Jesus?

Putting aside the societal laws given only to the Jews, and speaking of God's Law in terms of morality - these laws have never changed. Jesus repeats each of the ten commandments in the NT except for the Sabbath Law, because He is now our Sabbath rest.

God's moral laws were given to be a mirror. To show us just how evil we are, and how much we are in need of a Savior. It also reflects just how perfect God is and reveals how different (holy) He is than us. By God's moral laws we learn what pleases Him and should live in such a way to please Him (Jesus said "Keep my commandments.")

The "line" as you say, came when Christ lived a perfect life and fulfilled (filled up, made perfect, not voided) every single law of God. Because of His sinless sacrifice, the penalty we deserve for breaking God's Law has been paid. (you probably know this but I'm trying to tie it together for you) So, those who are in Christ will not be held accountable for breaking God's law as unbelievers will. It's not that God's law was ever made void, it's that Christians have a way of escape from the death penalty.

I know I'm hurrying and skipping a bunch of stuff, but hopefully this will help you a bit. Great question!

That does make a lot of sense. i like how you kept it simple for me too because i do have a hard time rememebering things or putting them all together so i thank you for handling it so sweetly.
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Re: My Mind Has Been Working Overtime. End Time Question

Postby Paula22466 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:47 pm

Shann wrote:That does make a lot of sense. i like how you kept it simple for me too because i do have a hard time remembering things or putting them all together so i thank you for handling it so sweetly.

Shann, happy to help :)
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