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The Partial Preterist's Stance

For those who like to discuss and debate theology. This is a forum for people who enjoy strong and lively debate with people who may not be likeminded. Participants are requested to always treat other opinions with respect.

Moderators: mikeedwards, RedBaron, cori67

jo555
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Re: The Partial Preterist's Stance

Postby jo555 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:42 am

I have read a good portion of the posts here, but not all as some of it is over my head. I'll say that I haven't dived much into end times events in the bible, but not too long ago wanted to dive back into Revelations because of the symbolism in it. God does use dreams and visions in my life that contain symbolism, and yes, I believe in order for it to be interpreted properly the interpretation must line up with the Word of God, and how He would reveal his Heart.

So, I was wondering how much of Revelations may be more symbolic . . . although I believe symbolic references can also be literal. For instance, I see the mark of the beast as symbolic, just like the bible refers to believers having the Lord's mark, but at the same time I do not discount the fact that there may also arise a system where one cannot buy without a literal mark.

In my dreams God will sometimes use a person to represent people. So, when I read text within the bible that appears to have symbolism, I wonder if the person, whether it be the beast, or the woman giving birth in revelations, and such, represent people.

Here are some scriptures that I haven't determined which way it goes . . . is there still AN antichrist to come, or are these antichrists considered a portion of this antichrist.

1 John 2:18-22
New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.


I think it may be nice to start a new topic on revelations and take the scriptures from the beginning, and see what we can prayerfully come up with.

Off topic in regards to main topic, but like consider the 7 churches and the 7 spirits of the Lord. Now, going by memory but as I recall those verses, it appears to me that certain churches are possibly given a greater measure of the Holy Spirit pertaining to the aspect of the Spirit entrusted to them.

And in regards to the sun, here is a verse from the first chapter of revelations:

His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Could Jesus be the sun referred to in Revelations? Not sure how well that fits in with the attire and such in regards to the change in the sun.

Does the reference to the stars falling speak of those positioned in high places?

When I see the moon in my dreams or visions, I tend to feel it speaks of the church for we are like the moon that reflects the light of the sun. We reflect the light of the Son. Could this be what the moon turning red is about?

Consider the verses below:

Revelation 6:9-17
New International Version (NIV)

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[a] were killed just as they had been.
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[b] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[c] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


And, if indeed it is symbolic, could it also mean that these things will also be literal as a reflection of what is happening in the spiritual realm?

Anyway, I think diving into the book of Revelation, like we could take it from the beginning, could be interesting and enlightening. I don't know how much I would be able to contribute on a theoligical standpoint as I haven't really done that study in regards to end times, but maybe I can contribute in regards to some of the symbolism (and anyone else that may have some input there), something I can offer to prayerfully, and we can biblically consider.

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Re: The Partial Preterist's Stance

Postby Paula22466 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:53 am

Jo, I'd very much like to discuss Revelation here, and will promise to contribute as much as time allows. :)
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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Re: The Partial Preterist's Stance

Postby jo555 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:57 pm

Paula22466 wrote:Jo, I'd very much like to discuss Revelation here, and will promise to contribute as much as time allows. :)


I hear ya Paula. I'm in a similar boat. In fact, I hoped to start today but first began posting on another thread and my two chihuahuas, my babies, are clamoring for my attention, so me decided to try again another day so I can spend some time with them before I go to work.

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Re: The Partial Preterist's Stance

Postby Paula22466 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:42 pm

check this out:
Chernobyl - An Accurate Translation
What's in a name?. Happy names like rose and daisy can be found in streets, towns and cities everywhere – regardless of language. Even non-flowering plant names like fern, oak and cat-tails are common. Unpleasant names like mugwort and wormwood are much less common. Such names are rarely used except when negative connotations are deliberate, such as Wormwood Scrubs prison in England.

"Chernobyl Fallout: Apocalyptic Tale" was published by the New York Times on July 25, 1986. Claiming Chernobyl translated to Wormwood, potentially making it the third trumpet prophecy of Revelation, Serge Schermann failed to substantiate his sources and his story was largely discredited.

Armed with a couple of years of prior Russian language study, I decided to pursue original sources and dig deeper into the matter recently. Here are the verifiable facts:

1) Chernobyl and chornobyl are Russian and Ukranian words meaning literally "black stalks", referring to artemisia vulgaris – four-foot high grassy plants known in English as mugwort or "common wormwood".
2) Chornobyl (Чорнобиль) was the Ukranian city lending its name to the reactor.
3) Wormwood, according to my 1984 (note this pre-dates the meltdown) Merriam-Webster Dictionary is Artemisia, esp. Artemisia absinthium. The definition explicitly encompasses all varieties of Artemisia.
4) Mugwort (artemisia vulgaris) is closely related to artemisia absinthium, both genetically and in physical appearance.
5) Curiously, mugwort was not listed in my Merriam-Webster dictionary of nearly 160,000 words, underscoring the fact that it is best known as "common wormwood".
6) Prior to 1986 both Russian and Ukranian dictionaries included wormwood as a secondary definition for chernobyl/chornobyl and many internet translators still translate chernobyl into wormwood.
7) Wormwood acquired its name because of its ability to act as a "de-wormer" (i.e., expelling intestinal worm infestations). The de-worming ability extends throughout various artemisia species.
8) Polyn' ("полин" in Ukrainian or "полын" in Russian) is the primary term in Russian for artemisia absinthium or wormwood.
9) Pelyněk černobýl is the Czech name for artemisia vulgaris (i.e., mugwort) and translates literally as wormwood vulgaris, thus helping to explain the relationship between and origins of both polyn' and chernobyl.
10) Perhaps the most observable difference between mugwort and wormwood is whether the stalks are green or whether the stalks are dark green.
11) Apsinthos (Aψινθος), the Greek word found in the earliest surviving Revelation manuscripts, means "bitter like wormwood". Although often used to describe artemisia absinthia, "wormwood" is not an exact literal translation.
12) Historical translations include "Bitter" from the 1969 Worldwide English New Testament and "Wormwood (footnote - that is, Bitter)" from the 1973, 1984 New International Version of the Bible. Both of these predate the Chernobyl meltdown.
13) The world's oldest surviving Bible, the Codex Sinaiticus (available online) uses the Greek name Apsinthion (Aψίνθιον), a broadly encompassing term meaning "of the nature of absinthia. (Note: Some claim there is evidence of this word having been changed from Apsinthos.)
14) Only one of the many apocalyptic events described in Revelation was assigned a proper noun as a name (an obscure name at that).

The facts indicate that Chernobyl is an accurate translation for the term Wormwood, as used in the third trumpet prophecy of Revelation, regardless of whether one translates from original manuscripts or English language texts. Counter-arguments claiming Chernobyl isn't a good translation fail when subjected to scrutiny.

One question needing to be answered though is: What are the odds that an obscure name used in the Bible just happens to match the name of the city where one of the worst man-made disasters in history occurred? The odds of a mere coincidence would seem to be, mathematically speaking, extremely remote.

A more substantive counter-argument is that the Chernobyl disaster doesn't fit the description given of the third trumpet prophecy. That argument loses merit though when one examines the passage critically. Although often interpreted as a literal star, asteroid or comet falling to earth, it's worth considering that the later fifth trumpet "star" is an obvious figurative star, thereby lending further credence to Chernobyl as the third trumpet prophecy.

15) As with English, both the Greek and Aramaic words for star have multiple meanings.
16) The Greek word ἀστήρ means not only star and famous, but also strewn over the sky - fitting terminology for the Chernobyl explosion and radioactive fallout which heavily contaminated thousands of square miles of land in the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, much of which will be uninhabitable for thousands of years.
17) An ever-increasing body of evidence suggests that the New Testament may have been originally written in Aramaic (i.e., the language Mel Gibson used in "Passion of the Christ") rather than Greek. The Aramaic word for star, kwkb, can be both noun and verb - for example, to be made a star, an interesting association since that definition applies literally to what happened at Chernobyl.

Wormwood is one of the important clues in Revelation. It stands uniquely alone among the events of Revelation in that it was given a name. Though perhaps not a unique name, the unarguable fact is that the name Wormwood is one which is rarely used. Adding further unique identification is the fact that it is a proper noun rather than a common noun.

Ultimately, one needs to form one's own conclusion as to whether Chernobyl fits the prophecy of Revelation. For me, the book of Revelation took on new meaning when viewed from a 20th/21st century perspective.
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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