Once Saved Always Saved?

[cindyjo]

I believe that first we have to throw out human reasoning, but understand that God's thoughts and His ways are higher than our own

Isaiah 55:8,9

Isaiah also talks about free pardon

Isaiah55:7

John 8:36 says "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed".
We look upon earthly things and do too much concluding based upon it. Why and how God chooses to do what He does is beyond human comprehension, we can just simply take Him at His word!

[Paula22466]

I believe that first we have to throw out human reasoning, but understand that God's thoughts and His ways are higher than our own

Isaiah 55:8,9

Isaiah also talks about free pardon

Isaiah55:7

John 8:36 says "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed".
We look upon earthly things and do too much concluding based upon it. Why and how God chooses to do what He does is beyond human comprehension, we can just simply take Him at His word!

I certainly agree that our finite minds cannot possibly understand the mind of God at its fullest, and there is some truth in "just believe it because the Bible says it," but if you have tried saying that to an unbeliever, you will know it's not the answer they want to hear or one which will satisfy. It's our responsibility to learn as much as God will reveal to us individually through our relationship with Him, the Bible, other study materials, etc, so we are able to "give an answer for the reason of our hope" (1 Peter 3:15). I'm not saying every Christian should be a scholar, but every Christian should know why they believe what they believe, and be able to explain it. Unfortunately, most believers have not even read the entire Bible through. So sad.

[cindyjo]

Paula, just because I may say things differently than you would does not make it wrong. If quoting the Bible isn't good enough then there's nothing you or I could say that would make a person be saved. There is not just "some truth" to if the Bible says it, but ALL truth. It is the beginning place and the end. We may wander around in the middle but we have to come to the Word for truth and seek the leadership of His Spirit for His word is spiritually discerned. That's what I meant. I believe the quotes I gave in previous post are powerful and to the point.

1 Corinthians 2:14

I'm posting from a mobile phone so I keep it short. I have much more to say. But what the Bible says is most important by far!

[Paula22466]

Paula, just because I may say things differently than you would does not make it wrong.

I don't believe I accused you of being wrong anywhere in my post. Not sure where that came from.

If quoting the Bible isn't good enough then there's nothing you or I could say that would make a person be saved.

Obviously you misunderstood my comment. I certainly did not insinuate that "quoting the Bible isn't good enough," my point was to push against your suggestion in which you said since we can't understand everything about God, or the Bible, we should just "take Him at His Word," and throw out reasoning. My point being, yes we can take Him at His Word, BUT often times, we can also find out why He says what He says, and we ought to. As a side note, you or I do not "make a person be saved," regardless of what we say.

There is not just "some truth" to if the Bible says it, but ALL truth.

Once again, you misunderstood me. There is no greater supporter of biblical truth than I.

1 Corinthians 2:14

I think you are using this text improperly, since unbelievers surely can understand biblical apologetics, which is basically what I was talking about in my previous post. Paul, in this verse, does not, nor cannot mean, that unbelievers can never understand the Bible, certainly they can understand it logically, but they will not receive it as truth without the Spirit. However, let's not forget that faith comes by hearing, so there are indeed those times when God "opens the ears" of the unregenerate that they may both understand and receive.

[eaglelion]

Hi -

Wow! I posted the subject topic in August of last year. It's striking to me that folks are still commenting on it. Lord, have Your way. Thank You.

[cindyjo]

SqI'm glad you did post this. I deal with people all the time regarding the "once saved always saved" question. It is good to have a place to talk about Bible questions and share our faith. It is my firm belief that when you find the answer to this question according to the Bible - not according to human reasoning - you will understand the "peace of God which transends all understanding"

Philippians 4:7

We understand by faith that God created the universe. By faith we believe the Bible, all of the Bible. We can't pick and choose as if from a menu, it's either all true or not at all (not that I think anyone is purposely choosing that way). It takes faith to believe the unbelievable, hat's what I meant about "throwing out human reasoning" (to quote myself from earlier post...). To find the answer we have to look through the eyes of faith.

There have been many good points made, I'd like to add something for all those who doubt that salvation is once and for all time (always). Consider God's love...we understand with our minds but in our hearts we cannot fully comprehend the fathomless depths of His love for us. Even though we are sinners God died for you and me.

[cindyjo]

Had to post the last one type-os and all. I have a hard time posting from android for some reason.
To get back to my point...

God loved us so much that He (Christ) died in our place to pay our sin debt. He does not make mistakes.

2Corinthians5:19

It is because of His love that He forgives us. His great love that is spoken of in John 3:16 where He also promised eternal life to all that believe in His Son. What part of ETERNAL can be lost? God said it I bel
I believe it, that's where the faith 'rubber meets the road'.
Some say that sin causes to lose salvation, not so. If salvation was based upon sinlessness no person would ever be saved. Thank God, He made a way that unrighteous man can be reconciled to a righteous God (Himself) through Jesus Christ!

2 Corinthians 5:17

Being born again means having a new life, being a new creatioieven, the old is gone!

[Come forth]

I think we sometimes confuse our salvation with God's love; because He will ALWAYS love us we think that we will ALWAYS be saved. Think about this for a second, because I am NOT saying we are not always saved. But if your child does something wrong you continue to love them; but do you always protect them from their consequences? I hope not, for their sake.

All I am saying here is that God's eternal love, within and of itself, is not evidence of once saved always saved. The truth is He loves even the worst of those who are not saved every bit as much as those who are.

I also wonder about our western concept of salvation being an event linked to a certain time. Because this happened back then I am now saved. Phil. 2:12 suggests a process of salvation rather than an event. Are we actually saved or are we being saved? Is the question, "Can we lose our salvation?" better asked, "Can we stop going through the process?"

Once again, I believe the contradictions are a part of the understanding that we all need to grow through to complete the process of salvation. There is no contradiction in God's Word, but our thought processes are limited just as we are limited to understand time (there is no 'time' in God either). So for Him, and from His understanding, of course if we are saved it is eternal and will never be lost. But then, He also knows if we will step off the assembly line or if we will endure until the checkered flag.

Blessings, Graham

[cindyjo]

In response to Come Forth, the Bible does not teach that salvation is a process. What you wrote has no biblical basis at all. With all due respect what you said is a perfect example of human reasoning. You have every right to believe what you want, but please know that the Bible does teach us that salvation is once and for always. I want to share some verses with you that I hope you will seriously consider. (I noticed from your last post that you spent all of two minutes considering the last ones I posted.)

Romans 8:1

Condemnation here means "God's wrath that will come upon lost sinners" The saved will not suffer the wrath of God, and we have this assurance from the time we accept Jesus as Savior and Lord.

[Come forth]

I'm sorry you feel that way Cindyjo.

Now, I don't want to be rude, and I go to great lengths to show that I do agree with most points you and others have made; just read my posts. However, I do not believe that your understanding of Scripture is more correct than anyone else's. I believe that the whole of Scripture teaches that not only is salvation a process, but like any relationship that we have, it is also a relationship of growing depth, trust, faith etc. etc.

I do not wish to fight or to argue Scripture and you are free to discard anything and everything I say. We can post Bible references until the cows come home, but the truth for me is simple; I do not agree with your understanding of the Scripture references you have used. I am not saying you are wrong and that I am right; just simply that there is more to it than any of us have yet come to see.

As for the 'two minutes' I spent considering your post, you've jumped to a totally wrong conclusion. The simple truth is that I was typing while you were posting and I did not even know you had posted until after I had hit the submit button. However, I am very familiar with the Scriptures and because I do not agree with you does not deserve your reaction.

I love and respect the opinion of any one who wants to share. But arrogantly claiming we are right and everyone else is wrong is a dangerous place to stand.

Blessings, Graham.

[cindyjo]

Romans 8:1

Romans 5:1

Galatians3:13[/quote

Condemntion is God's wrath that will come upon lost sinners who've rejected salvation through Jesus. The saved will be spared from God's wrath because of accepting Jesus as Savior. Romans 8:1
By placing our faith in Jesus we are declared to be righteous before God (by God) and we have peace with God. Again it shows the saved are assured they will be spared from God's wrath. Romans 5:1
Redeemed-bought with a price-by the blood of Jesus. We belong to Him. Do a search on Redeemed in the Bible.

It is the love of God that caused God to make a way for us to be saved. We needed a Savior because we cannot save ourselves. No process.

1John 4:9,10

Romans3:26

God gets the credit (and praise) for salvation if it was by works it would be by our own power.It is by the power of God!

[lish1936]

I also wonder about our western concept of salvation being an event linked to a certain time. Because this happened back then I am now saved. Phil. 2:12 suggests a process of salvation rather than an event. Are we actually saved or are we being saved? Is the question, "Can we lose our salvation?" better asked, "Can we stop going through the process ?"

Before I express my thoughts, let me say, Cindy Jo and Come Forth, you are both right; but one must be careful not to confuse the act of being saved with the actions of "living saved." One is a once for all "event" and the other implies a process. I do believe the latter is what Phil 2 is all about.

I do not want to engage in what Paul calls, "idle babblings," but he does use the term in the context of "rightly dividing the word of truth."

So it's within that spirit of intention to rightly divide Phil 12:2, I share my thoughts about the "salvation process" as it relates to that verse. I will always remember a saying by my instructor of Paul Epistles when I attended Bible School. "You can't understand the text until you consider the context. When you read a verse, consider what comes before and what come after."

That advice seems appropriate here for this verse, in my opinion. This chapter is a letter from Paul to the Phillippians. He wanted to remind the Phillippians to "stand fast" even though he could not be with them in the flesh. He also reminds them of the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the importance of keeping in "mind" his Kingly role in the end times. Therefore, although Paul could not be with them to encourage them, even in his "absence" he wanted them as obedient believers to "work" out (continue on) in the teachings he shared with them before his imprisonment.

However, in keeping with the context ( almost as if he didn't want to be misunderstood), in the next verse Paul writes: "For it is God who works in you..." So the question is: Are we working out our salvation, or are we working out God's will and His "good pleasure" for our lives? It's both.

In my opinion, you cannot separate the two, since the Holy Spirit through Paul did not. To be engaged in living out God's will and pleasing Him can only come once you've received salvation. You can't "work out" something you don't have. Living out God's will and pleasing Him comes as He works in us. In that sense, it is a process, but we don't do it alone. It's a partnership. On the hand, there is no indication that if we don't do this, we can "lose" our salvation by aborting or short-circuiting the process. John 6:28 and 29 confirms that, once again, in my opinion.

The only "process" we must go through to insure our salvation is that spoken of by Christ in John 6:28 and 29 when the disciples asked Him how to "work the works of God." Only believe in God, Jesus admonishes them. Once a person is born again, whatever else takes place in his life is the result of God's influence that shapes how one lives. We are not as much responsible for working it out, as we are letting Him work through us.

My thoughts.

Lillian

[Come forth]

There are certainly some excellent thoughts, questions and opinions expressed in this thread; and all of them are valuable and encourage us to press in to the goal for which we have been called. Phil 3:4

I agree with the thought that we must make sure that we read what comes before and after each verse to ensure that we read it in context. But even more than that, we must read in context of the entire Scriptures; both Old and New Testaments. Scripture, even the Old, will never contradict itself or teach opposites. So, if we see what we think is an opposite or contradiction, it's time to pray for a deeper understanding.

I've tried to be open throughout this thread to both side of the debate; and to be honest, I do not stand firmly on either side. I understand the point of it all being His work in me, there is nothing I can add to my salvation, He is the One who deserves all the glory and grace. Without Jesus, man I hate to think of what my life would be; and believe me when I say that I love my Lord and know all of my thanks and praise are His.

However, nor can I deny the amount of times that Scripture directly calls me to be responsible for my works. 'I need to put off the works of the flesh' is a clear message so often in Paul's epistles. When asked what to do to attain salvation, Jesus did not ONLY reply "Believe in me". He also answered with things like, "Give all away and follow me", "Obey the commandments", "Let men deny themselves, take up their cross..."

I honestly believe that their is no one in the world right now who is healing people just by their shadow crossing over the sick and lame. I'm not saying there are no healings, just that no one has such a perfect faith and such an incredible understanding of God's Word that their mere shadow is enough to raise the dead. So maybe we all need to humbly listen to each other and see that there are far greater understandings to come.

Most of the time I try to put my thoughts in questions. Now this could be a device to get others to think but, in truth, it's because most of my thoughts are questions. Part of my surrender to Dad is that I do not have to have the answers yet; I am more than happy to be asking the right questions (The meaning of the word disciple is to be a student not a teacher).

I apologize to anyone who feels I've come on too strong (as I often do at times). However, I love the sharing of ideas and thoughts, It's what all good study groups should do.

Blessings, Graham.

[lish1936]

However, nor can I deny the amount of times that Scripture directly calls me to be responsible for my works. 'I need to put off the works of the flesh' is a clear message so often in Paul's epistles. When asked what to do to attain salvation, Jesus did not ONLY reply "Believe in me". He also answered with things like, "Give all away and follow me", "Obey the commandments", "Let men deny themselves, take up their cross

Graham, there's no need to apologize. You've not "come on too strong," just a little wrong. Sorry, I couldn't help rhyming it. Your know us writers. we're hopeless logophiles. But, on a more serious note, I revisited Romans 6 after you mentioned the "works of flesh." I cannot reconcile needing to put off the works of the flesh to improve our salvation status with what Paul says: "We are now slaves of righteousness, no more slaves to unrighteousness."
In Romans 7, He writes in the past tense. "For when we were in the flesh.

As for giving all away and following Christ, or denying oneself, when reading the context I do not believe it has anything to do with salvation, but with discipleship.

Salvation is simply believing that Jesus died on the cross, and accepting His forgiveness for sin. "Giving all away, taking up our cross, denying ourself, and being obedient to His commandments" has to do with discipleship - the act of being a disciple/follower that comes after salvation not as a requisite for salvation, or a condition for keeping it. If we want to be His disciple, his follower, then we must do these things. Christ didn't say, "if you're saved, keep my commandments." There's a reason for that. He knows that all we do, no matter how often and how diligent we are to do it, we cannot do enough to please the Father.

He said, "If ( a supposition that what He's saying is already true, and could be replaced with "since") you love me, then keep my commandments."

I believe the bar for salvation is far simpler. Christ made it so when He died. He satisfied God's requirements for our salvation. It's up to us to satisfy His demands for being a disciple. Once again, that's where the "process" comes in.

P.S. I really didn't mean you were wrong, even though I disagree with you. I was waxing poetic at your expense. Now, I must ask for forgiveness.

Blessings,

Lillian

[Colswann1]

Once saved always saved.

Jesus said that all that the Father gave him he intended that he lost nothing and then went on to say that the Father was greater than him and no man could pluck them out of Father's hand, and then went on to say that he and the Father were one.

Sounds a pretty safe place to be, in the hands of those who will not let go or lose anything.