Discouraged and Frustrated

[tomoral]

I just want to bring up one little thing. Sometimes we will get advice from one person who is reviewing that is in direct conflict with another person's view of a particular piece. That used to confuse me so I went and read some of the writings of both reviewers and judged for myself which one's advice I would follow.

I always follow Shann's advice, and I am never offended by her remarks because I want to be better writer and I know I have a long way to go yet.

Also, I am not a great reviewer because I am afraid I look for the upside of an article and use that to try and encourage others to keep writing. I don't critique, I guess.

Again, if I get a review that is less than friendly or in a tone I don't like, I just let it go. People who leave unfriendly remarks are just unfriendly. Ha!

One more thing and I will get off my soapbox

Allison: Do you think it might have been a case of horrid sour grapes?

[Shann]

I quit for a while because my attitude was wrong and I needed to get that right before I could come back.

But I do want to add this. I was not nearly as good a writer as I thought I was. I learned that from entering the challenge and reading the other entries. Once I accepted that, I was able to learn.

I also read every post in Jan's column and did the assignments. I learned a lot from that too. The yellow boxes are nice feedback from my peers, but I've learned not to expect most of them to offer a real learning experience.

I think maybe the most important thing I've learned from FW is what "show don't tell" actually means. I majored in creative writing in college, so I thought I knew all about it. I didn't.

After three years, I finally got an EC. Now I'm getting them fairly regularly. I always get a thrill, but I've come to the point where it's not the point anymore. I enter for the pleasure of writing and because I still need the structured challenge. So please stay with it and with FW because it will help you grow as a writer.

Great points! You beat me to it when you mentioned Jan's Writing Basics. I've referenced it many times. It's the best "free" course for any Faithwriter looking to improve his craft. I also suggest the library...another "free" source. Of course, there's nothing like professional feedback as a progress report to measure your improvements.

I, too, have no desire to beat the drums incessantly, but there needs to be another way to critique a Challenge article without having the comments attached to the article. Deb has articulated the why, but I can't get past the fact that my opinion is up against professional judges who may disagree.

As I stated before, I do not want to write permanently affixed, negative comments/suggestions on a "First Place" article. Call it pride, embarrassment, or a reluctance to accept, "See, you were wrong."

This also impacts the likeability factor for other non-Faithwriter readers.

To Graham's point, more constructive feedback might be forthcoming if comments were reviewed solely by the author rather than the internet population.

Lillian

I totally understand what you are saying. It has definitely happened to me where I have left suggestions on pieces that later won. But this doesn't mean my suggestion was incorrect for a couple of reasons. First, it's my opinion that the story was off topic or for me when you ask the reader questions it comes off as feeling preachy which for me is a turn-off.

Because those type of critiques are just my opinion, even if the story wins the Pulitzer or the Newberry Award, I'm still not wrong as I am sharing an opinion of my thoughts.

The second reason is even the EC stories will be edited and tweaked and polished before being published in the anthologies. The comments like this sentence felt awkward to me and might flow better like this: could be one of the suggested edits. Or, you wrote you're instead of your. is a comment that is true and will definitely be tweaked before going to the final draft.

Also, I think many people are aware that there have been times when I accidentally hurt someone's feelings. It breaks my heart and literally makes me sick. Usually though I send an apology and tell the person I didn't mean to hurt their feelings. After some time has passed, most people graciously accept my apology and realize my comment might have had some merit (or it might not have but if they can feel the motivator is love it's easier to accept)

The worst thing is when someone blames me for ruining writing which used to be fun, or someone said that the reason FW is going downhill is because of me(Shann not me the person tweaking), and another person said when someone like me is such a terrible writer so I don't want to bug anyone with my horrible writing and they thanked me(Shsnn) for showing them they were bad writers and would never write again and said thank you for that Shann. Those times are unbearable. I sob until I vomit, I can't sleep for days because I hurt or discouraged someone that much. it puts me on a dark and dangerous path.

I try to always pray before I leave a comment. Sometimes I can hear God say quite clearly, let that go on this one Shann. I've wondered why God didn't stop me on those three people who quit because of me. I have to believe it's for his glory. It hurts so much I want to crawl in a hole and never come out, but if God can use that pain for something good, who am I to question it. He must have known I would survive the heartache (with the help from family and friends)

Lastly, I always start with something good about a story, then try to give a constructive critique and examples. Instead of just saying some sentences didn't flow well, I try to say I stumbled over this sentence perhaps if you tried something like this it might flow better.
By giving an exact example and an exact solution to the problem, I pray that people see it as constructive and not mean critiquing. There are people who can be mean (mainly on other sites, rarely here) but as long as I know my motivation (which is to help others become the best writer they can be)comes from a place of love, I feel God is calling me to leave feedback.
Lastly, I always end on another positive notes. Often my constructive paragraph is the longest because I do try to explain and offer examples, but almost always my positive comments outweigh the constructive ones three to one.

I noticed several people mention sending PM. That used to be great, but now with the Silver Members entering up to 4 times, it's quite possible the person may never see the comment. Also I have had people tell me they have learned as much from my comments on other pieces as they do on their own/

If anyone wants a more thorough critique, please send me a note and give me the link to the story and I will do the best I can to give some positive feedback.

This may sound silly, but some of my happiest memories of FW are when I see a newbie move up the levels, yes, even when they reach Masters before I did or even if they ranked higher than I did. That fills my heart with joy and pride. (it sounds cheesy but it is really true)

Last, even if I didn't enter a story for the week, I stay up until the highest rankings are in so I can go through and tell everyone who didn't win the levels or EC but did rank in the top half of their level or if they ranked overall. I get so much joy from that. I can't explain it but knowing I might encourage someone does my heart good.

[Shann]

Yes, it is available to the public, and I totally understand what you're saying, Lillian. The Critique Circle is definitely a better place to get honest, constructive feedback. Maybe the Challenge should be reserved simply for encouragement. I guess it really depends on the writer. Perhaps there should be a place to check off whether or not the author wants advice and suggestions, or would rather not. It would be nice to be able to edit the comments and delete those we don't want to appear, but I'm not sure how the program works.

I have tried to figure out how and when to leave constructive feedback. I always pray before I comment and have faith that some way, maybe not the way I want, but my words will serve God. I've often thought about having writers put an author's note at the bottom like:
* Please leave constructive feedback
or
*Please only leave positive comments.

I don't know if it would be feasible or even the right thing to do. I have learned as much, if not more from other comments, other stories. If no one tells me what I'm doing wrong how can I fix it?

[Come forth]

Here I go again; big foot, small mouth and broken teeth. But this time I have removed my shoes and socks (or is that sox in the US of A).

I get confused by all of this. I was under the impression that the whole point of joining FW was to become a better writer; I also believed that was the whole idea behind the challenge. If that is so then as a part of expecting to do that you SHOULD expect critiques to contain constructive criticism. There is no point at all in just throwing a bunch of roses every time you read a challenge article; you actually should give some constructive feedback, say what didn't work for you and explain why, point out the poor grammar, the miss-spelled words and try to help the writer improve.

Isn't that the point of it all?

One comment I received on one of my articles was that I spelled the word 'billy' two different ways (billy and billie). Man, that was silly of me. It was a poem about going on holiday in Australia and many people have enjoyed it since that challenge, but thanks to the person who made that comment (possibly Shann who nearly always gives some constructive info) I've been saved from lots of egg all over my face.

Some interesting facts about what happened to me, and I explain this to try and make my point. The person I critiqued had no complaint as far as I know. It was someone else, I don't know who and don't want to know, who went to a moderator and made comments about my critiques such as "If I can survive a critique by Graham I can survive anything". The moderator then wrote to me, I still believe in an official capacity, and gave some guidelines for how I should critique and told me about these comments. Now, every suggestion the moderator gave for how to improve my critique style, I had in actual fact done in the critique in question. I had pointed out that it was only my feelings, I had made suggestions not claimed facts, I had started with a positive and ended with a strong positive; and possibly most important, the writer I was critiquing asked for red ink and claimed to have a very tough hide. And, in fairness, I never received any thing negative from them.

My point is this, it was gossip and silly back stabbing on an article not even written by the complainers. It was all this sort of carry on.

Of course we should expect constructive criticism, that's why we joined and entered the challenge.

Here is what is written at the top of "The Official Writing Challenge" page, with some bold added by me:

"The FaithWriters.com Writing Challenge is a great way to develop your skill by writing to topic, word count, and deadline. You select and compete at your level of ability, while having FUN at the same time! While everyone helps each other grow as a writer. You may even become a Challenge winner."

Frankly I'm almost dumb struck, but obviously not keyboard struck, to realize that people enter the challenge and DON'T want constructive feedback. Obviously, those who believe everything they write is divine and are so thin skinned they can't accept any comment except "Wonderful" are not going to continue if we only give constructive feedback; but that should be okay.

As for only letting the writer see the comments, that would be a shame. As I believe has already been mentioned, there is so much to learn from reading other articles and the comments they receive (when the comments are constructive and contain points to learn from).

Sorry if I'm upsetting anyone, but I still feel, "What is this really all about?" I think a new rule should apply to all comments on challenge entries; at least one constructive opinion should be included.

I'll put my shoes and socks (sox) back on now and hope that I have not offended anyone; not my intention.

I know that throwing roses is also good. I love positive comments too and I want to say a big "Well Done" to all that try to help others to improve.

Blessings, Graham

[tomoral]

Shann, you have never given me anything but gentle, constructive, feedback, and I took it that wa'ty. Like Graham said, we are here to learn and grow as writers. Now, I am a novice, and if someone who I know to be a much better writer than I gives me advice, I will take it and that is how I have advanced to level three. I read the articles of the person advising me and I can see that they know what they are talking about or not.

Graham, I have received your critiques as well and you have always been gracious and kind in your remarks. I know these remarks stay in the little yellow boxes for all to see but so do the encouraging ones. I guess I am just not that competitive because it really doesn't bother me.

Now, if someone blasted me the way Allison was I might feel differently, so considering that, it would be a good idea if our critiques were done privately.

[RedBaron]

The problem is that most of the people I've seen leaving the really nasty, angry feedback are also not forum members. They don't know the rest of us. I think those of us who've gotten to know each other knows how best to leave feedback for those people.

I've gone back and read my challenges and some of them make me go "What was I thinking?" and cringe LOL. Others, I'm very proud of, and was welcome for suggestions to improve them, because there's a few I'd like to expand on into larger works.

I've only placed twice in the EC during the time when I was entering regularly. That was back in the day when it was open to everyone, and eventually they had to cut it off at 200 entries. I used to comment on every single entry, until things got busier as the kids got older and I was blessed with paid work - part of the reason I found FW in the first place. I was looking for Christian freelance opportunities and ran across the challenge, and then later found the forum. I placed 3rd in beginners for that first entry and was really surprised. But it gave me the courage I needed to go out and actually start actively pursuing the insanity of being a writer

We never know where someone is coming from when they find FW. Some are people who've never written before and they need to treated with kid gloves, as Deb says, until they learn how to understand the feedback most of us crave. Then we have people who have literally told me, and others, after being given suggestions, that their work was directly inspired by God and they don't want to/need to make any changes at all, as it is perfect the way it is... even though to everyone else, it has errors, and minor things that could be changed to make it better. Then we have other people, who for some reason, take it upon themselves to just slam people in the feedback boxes, and are cruel and bitter. And as mentioned before, a lot of times, those very same entries end up to be ones that go on to place, and at least in the once case, first place in the EC.

Another type of person we find coming here is the "American Idol Syndrome", where they've been told by well meaning friends and family that they write well (which is what I was always afraid of being true for myself, till I started placing in the WC lol), when in reality, they really don't. They may have a spark of talent or good ideas, but they need a lot of polish to bring it out. That's what constructive criticism is meant to do - polish our work, when done right.

[lish1936]

As for only letting the writer see the comments, that would be a shame. As I believe has already been mentioned, there is so much to learn from reading other articles and the comments they receive (when the comments are constructive and contain points to learn from).

Graham,

Let me see if I can clarify my concerns, since I have a real problem with "constructive" comments that are permanently attached to Challenge articles. If comments were viewed by all Faithwriters, and it stopped there, I would embrace that idea. However, that is not the case. All comments are available to anyone with a computer - and that runs into the millions. I see no credible reason why the general public needs to know if the article they're reading has errors in construction, spelling, grammar, etc., or for that matter how good it is before they read it; or even after. They can make those decisions for themselves.

Who knows how many inspiring articles go unread because of negative comments about grammar, spelling, etc.? I've always been taught that one should never hang their dirty laundry out for public viewing.

If there was a way to remove the yellow boxes before the article is permanently added to the author's "Challenge Articles," then I say, by all means, pile on the "bricks," or let 'em fly.

Blessings,

Lillian

[Colswann1]

Oh, those lovely golden boxes and that encouragement, must be working - everybody keeps saying how they've improved.

[tomoral]

Okay guys. I have just received a critique from Jan (a lovely lady) telling how I could improve my poem. She was kind and encouraging and told me what I needed to think about in order to be a better writer. Other writers such as myself will see that comment and maybe it will help them also. I don't care who sees it, but that's just me.

I really must have a thick skin.

[lish1936]

. I don't care who sees it, but that's just me.

I really must have a thick skin.

Love ya, Lynn,
With thick skin.
But pardon me,
If I disagree.
I care, "who sees."

Lillian

[Shann]

What you all have been saying is what I was trying to say. There are people who have the American Idol Syndrome for sure. I have gone back and forth about whether I should leave constructive critiques or not. After someone wrote an entire article about how I was the reason FW had gone downhill (and that article will be out there forever too) I sunk into a very dark and dangerous place. I guess part of the reason I stuck with it was because my name was not mentioned in the article, though anyone familiar with me and my feedback knew instantly that I was the person who had made FW a bad place. My husband had begged me to quit at that point because I sobbed nonstop for a week. I became physically I'll and was pretty much useless. Even know thinking about it, I'm crying.

After I stumbled across the article I was crushed. (I had just moved up to Masters so the order in which I read the entries was different. I believe God had a hand in that because had I discovered it several days earlier, I wouldn't have been able to leave more critiques. As it happened, instead of being one of the first stories I would have read it was the third to last one. I took that as a message that God wanted me to critique those stories) I think part of my pain was that article had been read like 50 times and not one person warned me about it. If I had been able to brace myself maybe I wouldn't have gone to such a dark place.

I see FW as a family and that we should look out for one another. I know what comment Graham is talking about because I remember reading it and it did sound harsh to me, but I am sensitive so I checked with the author (I can't remember who it was) and asked if they were okay. They said it might have stung a bit at first, but that overall they were fine with it. Had she answered any other way, I may have sent a note to Graham, after asking her permission. It's a way of looking out for our family. I know Graham would NEVER intentionally hurt someone, though the intent or lack of it doesn't change the fact. My husband will say I didn't mean to hurt your feelings and I answer If you were playing baseball and accidentally threw the ball through the window, you wouldn't have meant to break the window but it's still broken.

That's how we need to look at things here too. Rarely does anyone mean to break a window with their comments, but once it happens then you go knock on the door, say I'm sorry and offer to help fix the broken window.

So if God calls you to leave constructive critiques, then you should listen. Through the balls with love and God's guiding and if a window breaks grab a friend, apologize and try to fix, but remember not all windows can be repaired by us. Only Jesus can fix certain windows.

Okay I'm taking my soapbox and going home! But I really truly love each one of you!

[tomoral]

Lillian, I was going to write you a poem back but I can't top that so I will critique it instead.



Let's see, you might have....no, that was okay.....but I probably would have....no, I wouldn't have .....it might have read better is you.....no, it read fine.

I really like it, it made me smile! It was perfect!

[tomoral]

Lillian, I was going to write you a poem back but I can't top that so I will critique it instead.



Let's see, you might have....no, that was okay.....but I probably would have....no, I wouldn't have .....it might have read better is you.....no, it read fine.

I really like it, it made me smile! It was perfect!

[lish1936]

Lillian, I was going to write you a poem back but I can't top that so I will critique it instead.



Let's see, you might have....no, that was okay.....but I probably would have....no, I wouldn't have .....it might have read better is you.....no, it read fine.

I really like it, it made me smile! It was perfect!

What fun! Loved your critique. Now that's the kind of comment I'd like in my yellow bar.

Your name was such a perfect fit
I couldn't resist.
( And I can't think of the next line)

Lillian

[violin4jesus]

I just want to echo most of the suggestions already given: read a bunch of Challenge articles - especially those in Masters - and the comments, don't worry if you have constructive suggestions in your comments but take them to heart, and ignore the meanies.

I moved up quickly when I first joined because I became familiar with the kind of story that placed in the EC list, I reviewed the criteria and evaluated my pieces according to it, and I solicited help from others to tweak my pieces before submitting them. That said, I write at approximately the same level of writing (although at times I really challenge myself to try something different) for pretty much every piece, and some make EC or in the top rankings, and some don't. Doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason as to why one does better than another. And yes, I've poured my heart out into one piece which doesn't place, and written another on the fly two hours before the deadline which wins EC. A few pieces I know beforehand will place because they just have that feeling to them; they're just the right amount out of the box and have a clear message or are sufficiently creative. I've still never placed first, though. I mostly care about the rankings - EC and top 20/30/40.

I try to not get too hung up on why a piece doesn't rank. If it challenged me, if it got me to actually write something, if it blessed those who read it, who cares? Yes, deep down I do care - what writer wouldn't - but if our intention is to honor God and improve our craft, then we have to take the ups with the downs. And I read the ECs. Sometimes it's really obvious that someone else just had a better idea. And wrote it more creatively. We can't all win or rank every time. Let someone else have a shot.

I'll be honest; if I can't come up with a halfway decently creative out of the box idea, I just don't write it. Most of the time I have to mull over the topic all week long, and it gets to Wednesday night and I'm still idea-less. So I don't challenge myself every week. And some weeks are just too busy to even think. But I'm still a writer. And sometimes I'm really good. And maybe someday I'll write as good as Jan.