Once Saved Always Saved?

[lish1936]

Lillian,
You said forfeit means to lose. I used it a s a verb:
<--- Concise Oxford Thesaurus --->
forfeit , , , be deprived of, surrender, relinquish, sacrifice, give up, yield, renounce, forgo; informal pass up, lose out on. Wayne

Words, words, words.

Out of many words, one meaning, and undeniably one result...You ain't got what you once had.

And that's why I believe IF you're truly saved, God will not allow you to rescind what He will not rescind...His "gift" to His Son for His sacrificial death. God so loved the world that He gave... And He kept giving, but now, not just to the world, but to His Son. "All that the Father gives to Me," Jesus said, "shall come to me....and no man can pluck him out of MY hands." I'm not talking about tares, here; they grow with the wheat.

That's why we're compared to sheep. The truly saved may wander, but will eventually be brought back to the fold. And I'm not talking about wolves in sheep's clothing who WILL forfeit -lose-lose out -yield - renounce, et al.

This brings me back to the IF, a crucial part of the discussion, and the one factor that only God and each individual can ultimately know.

Blessings,

Lillian

[pathlightfinder]

Hmm, so the angels have the freewill to reject God (that can not be denied if you believe in the Bible); but, if a man accepts Jesus he will be forced to always accept. Or so goes the "once saved, always saved" theory?

The God I know doesn't work that way and neither does His Son.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

[lish1936]

Hmm, so the angels have the freewill to reject God (that can not be denied if you believe in the Bible); but, if a man accepts Jesus he will be forced to always accept. Or so goes the "once saved, always saved" theory?


Wayne

Oh, no, Bro. Wayne. Not at all. When you introduce angels, you're adding a new dimension/diversion to my belief and the discussion. What Jesus alluded to in the Scriptures had to do with mankind.

"Angels never felt the joy that our salvation brings."

For the TRULY saved:
For this very reason there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (and behave in no flesh-governed way but in a spiritual way); for the life-giving principles of the Spirit freed you in Christ Jesus from the control of the principles of sin and death. For what the law could not do...God did by sending His Son...He condemned sin in HUMAN nature. Romans 8.

And the word "forced" does not adequately characterize my belief. IF one is truly saved, he has free will. However (and I use this as a simple illustration), he is like an pet on a leash. The owner owns him , but allows him to wander (exercise his will). Sooner or later he pulls him back and sets him back on the right track towards home.

"He does not compel us to go against our will, He just makes us willing to go."

I think we've probably exhausted the subject. I will continue to respect our differences. As long as we are in Christ, our opinions will not keep us out of heaven. Praise God for that.

Lillian

[pheeweed]

I know Lish said she's done, but I'd like to introduce another angle to this debate. In His prayer to His Father in John 17, Jesus says that the believers not only belong to Him, they are a gift to Him from His Father. Focus particularly on John 17:6-10.

If we belong to Jesus, we do not belong to ourselves. (There are other verses that say this as well.) So how can we take something away from Him that we don't own? But more importantly, believers are the Father's gift to the Son and the purpose of that gift was to bring glory to Jesus. So if believers can reject their salvation, they are taking glory away from Him.

My salvation is not about me. It's not based on anything I am or have done to deserve it and it's not about whether I want it. It's purpose is to glorify Jesus.

Phee

P.S. I need to give credit to R.C. Sproul for giving me these ideas.

[Paula22466]

I know Lish said she's done, but I'd like to introduce another angle to this debate. In His prayer to His Father in John 17, Jesus says that the believers not only belong to Him, they are a gift to Him from His Father. Focus particularly on John 17:6-10.

If we belong to Jesus, we do not belong to ourselves. (There are other verses that say this as well.) So how can we take something away from Him that we don't own? But more importantly, believers are the Father's gift to the Son and the purpose of that gift was to bring glory to Jesus. So if believers can reject their salvation, they are taking glory away from Him.

My salvation is not about me. It's not based on anything I am or have done to deserve it and it's not about whether I want it. It's purpose is to glorify Jesus.

Phee

P.S. I need to give credit to R.C. Sproul for giving me these ideas.

Phee, these are wonderful thoughts. If we are in Christ, we do NOT belong to ourselves. We have been bought for a price. RC is my main man Do you know about Ligonier.org? Great stuff there.

[pheeweed]

Yes, I'm going through RC's lectures on Ligonier alphabetically. I just happen to be listening to the one on predestination right now. I also just discovered the conferences and found a lot of other amazing thinkers like Mohler, Godfrey and others I can't remember. I think we're so blessed to have people like that to learn from. BTW, I've learned a few thing from you, Paula.

[lish1936]

The answer to once saved always saved is, IF saved always saved. John 6: 35-65 makes that perfectly clear to me. Jesus had no problem believing that: "All that the Father gives me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me, I will no means cast out...and at the last day I will raise him up." I do not believe that God takes away what He has given to His Son.

Phee,
I don't know R.C. Sproul, but in one of my previous posts (as above), I also articulated something similar through John 6. Sproul just says it more eloquently and expansively than I could. But he and a I are on the same track.

Blessings,

Lillian

[Paula22466]

Yes, I'm going through RC's lectures on Ligonier alphabetically. I just happen to be listening to the one on predestination right now. I also just discovered the conferences and found a lot of other amazing thinkers like Mohler, Godfrey and others I can't remember. I think we're so blessed to have people like that to learn from. BTW, I've learned a few thing from you, Paula.

Thank you, Phee. You are too kind. It's nice to know I'm not spouting off around here for nothing. I hope you find RC's teaching as thought provoking as I have. Make sure you check out his series on the Holiness of God, it will take your breath away.

[Come forth]

Sometimes our logical minds struggle to define answers that, put simply, wrap everything up in a nice neat package.

I do not disagree with anything that has been said about ownership and gifts. But imagine a marriage so wonderfully based on such selflessness; I am my betrothed, I live for them alone, nothing they ever do could rip them from my heart. And yet, this same marriage would pail and become nothing but slavery if my heart and soul wasn't in this freely.

I can do nothing to earn my salvation, but if I am not a part of it, surely God's heart would break at such a loveless and uninvolved relationship.

Sacrificial love was given and if I do nothing in return, my love is not a sacrifice.

To the eastern mindset (and Jesus was not a westerner), nice, neat little packages of thinking are not necessary. They can not only live with was appears to be contrasts, they see the ambiguity as part of the answer.

I cannot earn salvation, but it is also the just reward for my labors of love. Salvation is free, but it costs me everything. He paid the price, but I still have to pick up the ticket. If I do nothing in this relationship, it isn't a relationship. God is all and has done it all for me, but the last thing in the world that Dad wants is a one sided love affair.

Not meaning to offend or argue, just thinking out loud.

Bless all, Graham.

[pheeweed]

LIllian, you did say it first. Somehow I missed that post. The idea was fresh in my mind so I felt the need to post it.

I cannot earn salvation, but it is also the just reward for my labors of love. Salvation is free, but it costs me everything. He paid the price, but I still have to pick up the ticket. If I do nothing in this relationship, it isn't a relationship. God is all and has done it all for me, but the last thing in the world that Dad wants is a one sided love affair.

Graham, it seems we've moved a little off the original topic of losing your salvation, but I don't think you can separate the issue of the source of salvation from the issue of keeping it.

I completely disagree that salvation is a reward for anything. It doesn't cost me anything; it cost Jesus everything. I couldn't even want it until He gave me the desire for Him. My love for Him comes from Him. To use your analogy, I wouldn't pick up the ticket unless He gave me the desire to do so.

Now that I am saved, the relationship is not one sided. I love Him with the love He gave me and that's a lot better than any love I could generate within myself while I was still dead in my sins.

I just don't see how the scripture can make it any clearer than in Ephesians 2:8: God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. (NLT). You can't take credit for salvation, grace OR faith.

Phee

[Come forth]

Once again, I agree with everything said here, but I also see ambiguity on the issue as part of the understanding.

Love is an action not just a feeling. Love must be 'in action' and a part of every relationship. Do nothing and you do not love. And yet, part of the ambiguity, sometimes love calls for no response and yet, even in making the choice to do nothing, the very choice is an action.

If someone loves you, courts you, earnestly desires you, and you do flat nothing in response...?

Maybe some would call it splitting hairs but for me the 'once saved always saved' argument is to talk about the depth of our relationship with God, our response to His actions that saved us and to challenge the 'security' aspect of that relationship. This all calls for me to pray deeper, meditate on the Word deeper and to move deeper into that relationship. That is what makes the relationship secure just as a marriage grows deeper and deeper by similar actions (Communication, evaluation and commitment; all of which are actions.)

The questions are part of the relationship; the 'marriage' relationship we have with God is best seen by understanding the natural equivalent of marriage. The Scriptures use first the natural and then the spiritual, this symbolism is throughout the entire Bible. So what do we learn from such things as adultery, abandonment and even divorce?

If you believe that once saved you are always saved, my personal response is that you are save, well grounded and 'secure' in your relationship with your Savior.

If you believe that you can lose your salvation by quitting on your relationship with Him and moving away from His courting of you, then my personal response is that your are committed and secure enough in this relationship to ask honest and scary questions, to seek out the truth and to not take it for granted.

One thing I really do believe is that none of us will lose our salvation over these questions or many more theological points.

Again, no argument here, just thought provoking.

Bless all, Graham.

[Paula22466]

I cannot earn salvation, but it is also the just reward for my labors of love. Salvation is free, but it costs me everything. He paid the price, but I still have to pick up the ticket. If I do nothing in this relationship, it isn't a relationship. God is all and has done it all for me, but the last thing in the world that Dad wants is a one sided love affair.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems you're talking more about sanctification than regeneration. Especially since you say "salvation is free." I understand the differences in how various cultures think, but I don't believe this example applies-salvation is either a gift or it is not, both cannot be true. Besides, I think you would agree with me that the Bible makes it clear that salvation is not earned, initial salvation, the moment of conversion.

The paradox shows up in a big way in sanctification, in how we live out our salvation. Even the Apostle Paul said he couldn't understand it in Romans 7: For what I am doing, I do not understand ; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Romans 8:5 Paul says For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit

Certainly there is a war going on in all believers. We are "being put to death daily." Jesus said if you love me you will obey me. So what do we make of those times when we are obedient? Is it because we have dug down deep in our selves and found something good in there? Or is it because the Spirit in us is changing our desires and interests? Personally, I don't believe there is anything good in me without Christ, no matter how deep I dig.

[JCinmyheart]

I am newto reading theseposts from last year, and I only madeit as far as the second comment. Oh mt faulty memory, I thiunk it was by Jo5555 or something like that. Any way, I just wanted to give a big hearty AMEN to hose comments and the peace we find in relying on our Lord for peace and strength and assurance.

What strikes me is many, many places in the New Testament that call us to be certain we are "In the faith". "Make your calling and election sure". There are many warnings written to proffesing believers in Paul's epistles to the churches. There are a plethora of scriptures that relate to this idea of "Making Sure". I believe it is more a matter of, have we fully surrendered our hearts to Christ, more than having done that, and losing that salvation. In my own walk, I strayed from obedience for many years, though I believed strongly. Then twenty-some years ago, I fell in love with Jesus and received a new heart. Was I saved before that? I had thought so, but My heart did not change until I fully surrendered to Christ. The semantics of the word "Believe", as in Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, said by Peter in Acts, carries a connotaion of active conversion, changing everything about us. The enemy would love nothing more than to deceive us into thinking we are saved, when we have never really surrendered our wills.

[JCinmyheart]

Sorry about all the typos in my first paragraph of the last post. I hit submit when I should have hit preview. Zigged when I shoulda Zagged.

[cindyjo]

This subject is near and dear to my heart. It's my humble belief that there should be no controversy over this, but I know there is. Eternal salvation has no meaning if it can be lost. Salvation is based upon Jesus's saving power therefore we can trust that once we are saved we're saved forever! Amazing Grace!

In future posts I will add chapter and verse.