Women elders?

[jo555]

Oh, Paula is armed and dangerous.



You men had better have your facts in order . . . her utensils are sharpened.

Oh, you know you love us, even if you find it hard to put up with us at times.

Sometimes I want to get away from myself too, but everywhere I go I am there.

Oh, just remembered, hid in Christ. Help me Jesus.



By the way, I'm impressed at how amicable this sensitive conversation is going. When I read the title and first post I thought, Oh, this may turn out to be interesting. Some good stuff in here. It is interesting, very, for the context. Thanks!

[pathlightfinder]

The great thing is that our Lord is no respecter of persons; but, we are told to refrain from what may hinder others. The closer we can get to removing the man-made social constructs that Satan uses to oppress the gifts God has given out, without regard for sex, race, etc. , the better off we all are. The trick is in implementing social change like Jesus did - through love and not through law, coercion, or force.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

https://thepathtolight.com/Home_Page.php

http://christianssearchandrescue.blogspot.com/

[stanuel]

A couple of clarifying remarks, if I may!

1. I'm certainly not saying that no women should ever lead anything, that would be ridiculous - thanks for all the examples! My focus is on women in eldership (i.e. that role held by the twelve in the Jerusalem church). Female deacons, prophets, evangelists and so on are to be cheered on as gifts to the kingdom!
2. Limiting eldership to men only (or holding a view of male headship in the home) doesn't have to be bigoted, and doesn't imply that women are somehow second-class or are not gifted; within the Trinity we see that the Son submits to the Father in everything and only does what he sees his Father doing, yet he is equally infinitely holy and worthy of our praise.

And a couple of responses:

I can't see Priscilla and Aquila called 'church leaders' in my Bible, I only see them referred to as 'fellow workers'. The word order is certainly interesting and would suggest that Priscilla was a gifted leader (good news for the early church, and thank God for many gifted ladies in the church today!) but certainly doesn't suggest that she (or he!) was an elder. For a genuinely fair and balanced view on this check out this article by a guy who knows Ancient Greek better than I do.

The Bible talks about male headship (carried out with sacrificial love) within two (AND ONLY TWO) contexts: (1) marriage - a wife should submit to her own (and only her own) husband, and (2) eldership. The instructions in the Bible are incredibly clear, with 1 Timothy 2:12 indeed being the 'sit down and shut up' most extreme instruction there - I think we should take the verse and ask 'how can we faithfully, fairly and lovingly submit to the Word of God' here rather than write it off as bigoted. Thankfully, a very clever guy has already asked (and answered) that question over here.

Finally, let me drop two more comments in:

1. The fastest-growing churches and church movements globally are those that hold to a male-only eldership view, and the fastest-shrinking churches and church movements are the ones that are becoming more liberal. That doesn't prove anything, but it's interesting to note.
2. Just as both men and women can agree with female elders (as has been demonstrated here), both men and women can agree with the male-only eldership view. Seriously, if I went home today and said to my wife that I didn't want to lead in the house any more she'd tell me to grow up and read my Bible again (she's a loving, joyful, submissive wife but is not a pushover, believe me)!

[Paula22466]

1. I'm certainly not saying that no women should ever lead anything, that would be ridiculous

Yes, it would.

2. Limiting eldership to men only (or holding a view of male headship in the home) doesn't have to be bigoted, and doesn't imply that women are somehow second-class or are not gifted; within the Trinity we see that the Son submits to the Father in everything and only does what he sees his Father doing, yet he is equally infinitely holy and worthy of our praise.

You are correct, it doesn't have to be bigoted. So why is it so often? I think you are preaching to the choir here, when you talk about women not being second class. If the Bible teaches that women ought not be in the elder role (of which I am not convinced either way) it would have no bearing on my self worth since I am sure God places no greater value on men than women.

The instructions in the Bible are incredibly clear

I don't think they are clear, not on this issue. And I just gave you a myriad of texts to show why it is not clear.

with 1 Timothy 2:12 indeed being the 'sit down and shut up' most extreme instruction there - I think we should take the verse and ask 'how can we faithfully, fairly and lovingly submit to the Word of God' here rather than write it off as bigoted.

I think we should take this verse and compare it to other scripture as well as extra biblical sources, context, setting, historical context, original language, etc. to gain the best possible explanation and most faithful understanding and put all of our own presuppositions and personal preferences aside. I assure you, I do not "write off" anything in the scripture as bigoted, the Bible is perfect, it is men who are bigots (some men).

I read your links, now you read mine. Thanks! http://christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

[Opinion8ed]

Hi all. Well, I am conflicted on this topic. I go to a church where we have women elders - a Baptist church no less. We were not attending the church when the decision was made to allow women to be elders but I have heard that they lost a lot of people because of that decision. And I do understand why. I think it's a tough question. I think we have to be REALLY careful about saying, "Oh, that's just cultural" when it comes to any scripture we feel doesn't fit well in our times. None-the-less there is certainly history and culture to be considered. Hence the conflict. Certainly we allow women to cut their hair and pray in the assembly and teach men and so on.

I think the for me the scripture that mainly gives me pause regarding women elders is Titus 1:5,6

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

It seems clear that these elders were to be male - a man, the husband. However, I suppose we could say that the issue of a "husband" would not require that an elder be married but that if he is he should have only one wife. However, there is dispute about that as well.

Just aside for a second, I've always wondered about that a bit. If an elder is specifically to have only one wife does that imply that other men could have more? When in scripture do we move from the time where a Godly man could have many wives, look at David and Solomon and other OT men, to where they can only have one. I can't think of a specific place where Jesus or Paul or anyone speaks to this directly - just btw, one wife only from now on guys.

Anyway, that aside, I love the women elders in our church, both of whom come to the small group at our home, but I admit that I am not entirely convinced that having women elders is sound scripturally. Is it OK to have women pastors? Where do we draw the line?

On this issue I cannot really sign off as

[jo555]

oops, double posting.

[jo555]

Well, I have often said I am not a hundred percent sure on anything except that God is good and loves us so, and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

That said, knowing what I know of the Lord and his Word, I personally don't have a problem with it, but I wouldn't tell anyone else that it is just fine. I would tell them the same thing . . . knowing what I know of the Lord and his Word, that I don't have a problem with it, but they should seek the Lord about it for themselves, and prayerfully read the scriptures on it.

If I personally did that now (got in an indepth study), I may not get much farther along than where I am on it now. Maybe, maybe not. I find that God often doesn't enlighten me just to enlighten me. I think it may be because I may get a big head with my knowledge.

If I were in a situation where the topic on this deeply grieved me, and / or others, then He may enlighten me as He sees fit.

So, just sharing on how I find the Lord can work in my life there.

Overall, I think it may be about structure and culture, but I am not sure. I don't have much time to look into it in my bible to see if I get anything (did briefly and found nothing to change my view on it, but I was rushed), so, just sharing where I am at there and how I proceed.

I don't believe structure and culture should overrule the Holy Spirit, but the Lord can use it, as with all things.

[Paula22466]

Certainly we allow women to cut their hair and pray in the assembly and teach men and so on.

Op8! LTNS Your baptist church is way more women-friendly than mine. We are neither permitted to pray in the assembly or teach men (although I do have college age kids in my class - I guess no one has complained yet, so they let it slide). Insert huge eye-roll here.

just aside for a second, I've always wondered about that a bit. If an elder is specifically to have only one wife does that imply that other men could have more? When in scripture do we move from the time where a Godly man could have many wives, look at David and Solomon and other OT men, to where they can only have one.

An elder is to have one wife is normally interpreted as meaning he could not be divorced. It literally translated as "one woman man," which could also suggest a man who faithful to the one wife he has (seems like a given). Nowhere in scripture do we ever ever ever see God condoning or encouraging men (any men - including David & Solomon) to have more than one wife. Men did it in that particular time period and in that culture, and sometimes God made allowances for it (for a time) but in Genesis God instituted marriage as between one man and one woman - which never changed. As a matter of fact, if we study the lives of those men who had multiple wives, we will learn that having more than one wife caused many difficulties for the men that they could've avoided if were married to only one wife.

Anyway, that aside, I love the women elders in our church, both of whom come to the small group at our home, but I admit that I am not entirely convinced that having women elders is sound scripturally. Is it OK to have women pastors? Where do we draw the line?

Good questions. Maybe the line is fuzzy. I think the Bible is clear that wives are to submit to their husbands, - and only their husbands. Not every other man in the world. Leadership in the church though, I think is more grounded in the creation order. Man was created first - to lead, be the head and women to help and serve. How our self value got wrapped up in our roles is of course, a result of the fall.

[jo555]

[quote="Paula22466"[An elder is to have one wife is normally interpreted as meaning he could not be divorced. It literally translated as "one woman man," which could also suggest a man who faithful to the one wife he has (seems like a given). Nowhere in scripture do we ever ever ever see God condoning or encouraging men (any men - including David & Solomon) to have more than one wife. Men did it in that particular time period and in that culture, and sometimes God made allowances for it (for a time) but in Genesis God instituted marriage as between one man and one woman - which never changed. As a matter of fact, if we study the lives of those men who had multiple wives, we will learn that having more than one wife caused many difficulties for the men that they could've avoided if were married to only one wife.
[/quote]

I had some of the same thoughts regarding the topic and the various aspects of it. Kept recalling Jesus speaking of divorce and stressing "because the hardness of your hearts" . . . which brings me back to structure being a good thing as it compliments the Holy Spirit, not overrules Him. And, as we all haven't yet reached the full stature of Christ, there is still a need for structure.

Not sure how well it fits, but what kept coming to my rememberance. . .

[Paula22466]

I had some of the same thoughts regarding the topic and the various aspects of it. Kept recalling Jesus speaking of divorce and stressing "because the hardness of your hearts" . . . which brings me back to structure being a good thing as it compliments the Holy Spirit, not overrules Him. And, as we all haven't yet reached the full stature of Christ, there is still a need for structure.

Not sure how well it fits, but what kept coming to my rememberance. . .

Yes, good thoughts

[Opinion8ed]

Yeah, I didn't really think that men had multiple wives in NT times, just found that specification for elders interesting, as though they were the only ones who could not. Not mine! He's got enough handling me.

I have a friend from a very conservative church that says not only that an elder must be a man because of the verses in Titus 1:5,6

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

but they also say that this means that an elder must be a married man with a family.

No single male elders, and only elders who have proved themselves by having a family of well-disciplined kids who are believers. They really take that literally and my friend was shocked that my church has female elders. Fortunately they are married women which makes them OK in one way. I guess I can see that elders should be married. They are often involved in counseling and helping people in the church. Could be a problem if they are helping single women frequently.

But I am still reticent to agree with the idea that elders have to be married and have children. I don't know if the verses should be taken that literally. However, I guess if I accept the part of the verse that basically says an elder should be a man, I might have to agree that they have to be married. But at this point I am OK with our women elders because I know them and they are wonderful women, strong believers with a lot of Bible knowledge, gifted in the area of helps and ministry.

I'm still staying kind of neutral on the topic, still not