Pedophile on your site

[jo555]

Timing is everything they say. I just recently posted an article on this subject on my website. Without rewriting the whole article just let me say here that there is a lot entailed in forgiveness and judgement - and tolerance is not involved.
I would posit that biblically speaking we must forgive any sin that is repented of. If the sin is not repented we are to offer help and urge repentance. If it is an intentional and repetitive sin and still unrepented of we are to shun the sinner. But, if they do repent we must forgive.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

Love the addition of the topic of tolerance in the picture.

On your take on forgiveness...don't mind me as I try and break this down...I see better in details,

It is a matter I have questioned too. And this may be what you are saying...or maybe not:

Overall, I have believed that one must forgive whether the offender has repented of a sin, or not. But as you said, we are not to tolerate sin, even as we can still love the sinner.

Maybe an example will help. If I were a mother that loved my children, but one repeatedly sinned and showed no desire to change, then I should not protect that child from the consequences of their sins...reaping what they sow.

It should not be tolerated, at least not under my roof. Although at heart I am not to hold their sins against them, I can be unforgiving in the sense of not tolerating it, and even shunning the sinner.

Yet if they do show a desire to change, then I should allow them back into the fellowship...as I take into consideration where they are in the process of change and how that invitation back in will affect others.

Is this what you are saying?

[pathlightfinder]

Thanks for the comments jo555.
I don't know if you read the artcile on my website but here is the url - https://thepathtolight.com/Forgiveness.php. Anyway, you brought up several very important points.
First is children. I, and I think Jesus, put children into a category all their own. Children are mentioned some 80+ times in the NT and "little ones" about a half dozen. Often this refers to us - the children of God, but also many times to kids - i.e. Matthew 19:14. Kids need and deserve our love and forgiveness even more than adults because they look to us for guidance just as we should look to the Spirit. We literally teach by example - actions speak louder than words.
Second, is love. To me (and I explain this further in an article Agape on my site) Biblical love equates to the desire to see someone closer to God. That is how and why we must love the sinner even though we condemn the sin.
Third, I would say yes I think you saw the gist of what I was trying to say. Forgiveness involves trying to help the sinner abstain from further conduct that hurts their relationship with God. If I were to just tell someone they are wrong but I won't hold it against them and go about my way I think I would have failed my Christian duty. I, in love, should try to help them not repeat the behavior = even if doing so is "inconvient". Even if it takes them a while to break "the habit" of what ever sin we are talking about. If they resist changing we "shun" by limiting much of our "love" to only Biblical Love. If they show serious signs of trying to change then we can better show our "earthly love" as well.
Breaking free from sin is a lifelong process none of us will perfect before we die - that's why we all need Jesus. But we can each only do so much, so we shouldn't invest so much time on an unrepentant sinner that we neglect those who could benefit more by our attention. That's where, to me, it gets difficult - knowing when to move on to more fertile ground.

I don't know if this clarifys or confuses my earlier comments?

In Brotherly Love

Wayne

PS- Regards to the pedophile - would I allow them near children - no. I say this for two reasons. First, too much damage could be done if I was wrong about them truly having changed. Second, we should never tempt each other to sin.

[jo555]

Thanks Wayne. I read the article, but really need to take more time to get into it all.

I believe overall we aren't to hold anyone's sins against them, as neither is God holding anyone's sins against them, but pointing them to Jesus. A Christian I know recently kept telling me that we don't have to ask for forgiveness from God because all our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future.

True, yet as I wasn't sure if he understood another other aspect, I elaborated. I said that yes, they are and he is probably right, I probably shouldn't be asking for forgiveness from God...I should probably replace that word with I am sorry, if I truly am. If not, I can ask for a repentant heart.

I said I like how Oswald Chambers said it, which I see it as lining up with the Word of God. He said that we are not forgiven because we are repentant or sorry. We are forgiven because of what Jesus has done and anything that tries and bypass that is off. He said repentance is the manifestation of the work that God is doing in us. Don't remember his exact words, but overall that is what he said.

I believe there are layers to this business of forgiveness, as you seem to be diving into too, but at it's most profound place is forgiving others of their trespasses, as God has forgiven us of ours.

I believe understanding the layers are importantt too.

[jo555]

Well hey, if Jesus could teach us to pray, "Forgive us of our trespasses, as we forgive those that have trespassed against us," that's good enough for me.

Hee, hee.

From all I know of scripture, I still believe that He isn't holding them against us at the most profound level.

It will be interesting to see what others may share...

[Hoomi]

We, as humans, judge by our own imperfect criteria. In God's eyes, we're all equally deserving of Hell. I belong under a pile of stones outside the city gates, just as much as Ted Bundy did. I've fallen short of the grace of God, and without Messiah, I'd have no better hope than the worst offender in history.

When I first transferred to Tucson, one of my new co-workers pulled me aside that first week, before the weekly workgroup meeting, and asked, "Has anyone told you about M- yet?" (M- here is used in place of the man's name)

I said, "M-? I don't think so."

He was just about to tell me when M- turned the corner behind me, heading for the meeting. My co-worker said, "I'll tell you later."

We sat down in the room, and a moment later, someone said, "Hello, M-."

I looked, and knew what my co-worker was going to tell me. M- had a pair of breasts any woman would have been proud of, and I would learn a bit later, was undergoing the process of a sex change.

Shortly thereafter, we started attending a newly formed Messianic Congregation in town, and we were a "hugging" congregation. I ended up in the leadership of this congregation, and one week, God pinged me about an attitude check. It was easy to hug most people that came to visit our Congregation. If there was anything "off" about them, I didn't know about it, and accepting people at face value was mostly a given. That was good, but it wasn't good enough. God wanted to know how I would react if M- ever visited. Would I be as quick to throw my arms open and give him an embrace in the name of Messiah, as I was for other visitors?

If not, then the one who needed to repent the most was me. What if M-'s best chance of coming to Messiah was for me to show him God's unconditional love, even as it had been shown to me? What if, because I was uncomfortable with M-'s lifestyle, I refused? If my desire was to see people as God sees them, then I had to be able to look beyond their sins and their imperfections, and see as well their need for a savior.

If, in my thinking, I decide that someone's sins are such that I will not respond to God's calling and share His love with them, then I have decided to put myself on the seat of the Righteous Judge, and to declare that this person is not deserving of God's grace. And that, folks, is a grievous sin, indeed.

As much as I hate pedophilia, the statements still apply. If Messiah's blood is not sufficient for a pedophile, then it's not sufficient for any of the rest of us, either, and we're all doomed to a dark and miserable eternity.

[pathlightfinder]

Hoomi, I would have to respectfully disagree with regards to ”M”. Such actions imply that God made a mistake. Does “M” think God erred and that “M” is fixing the error? A pedophile can stop that particular sinful behavior and be forgiven. Unless “M” is willing to return to the way God created him, he is purposely and continually choosing to go against God. See John 8:11. The key is “go and sin no more”. Yes, we all still sin – but that is not the same as choosing a patterned behavior of sin.
If “M” will not repent and return to the way God created him we are to shun him. See Titus 1:16 and Ephesians 5:11. Jesus emphasized go and sin no more – see also John 5:14. Tolerance is not acceptable. Intolerance does not mean we are any better – it means “M’s” continued choice to sin is not acceptable.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

PS – You stated. “M- had a pair of breasts any woman would have been proud”. I would think that comment may be quite offensive to some.

[Hoomi]

Why should M- repent, when he doesn't believe?

Why should he believe, if we shun him and act as though God hates him?

I am not saying that we should accept sin as okay and give carte blanche to let everyone do what they want. I am saying that our calling is to draw people to Messiah. How are we going to do that, if we shun them?

How are we going to do it, if people see that we shun certain sinners, but not others?

Should we shun gossips? I think we'd lose a large percentage of our church members, if we took as hard of a line against gossip as God does.

Should we shun the self-righteous? Jesus condemned those, while we have no record of Him speaking against homosexuals. In fact, His strongest words were against the religious leaders who lauded their own adherence to Torah, not against the secular that violated Torah.

The Torah - the same Law that we derive our condemnation of homosexuality from, prohibits tattoos and the cutting of our beards. Shall we shun everyone with a tattoo, or any clean-shaven men? It prohibits the consumption of pork and shellfish also. Shall we shun all those that refuse to observe kashrut?

Where do we draw the line in shunning sinners? In my experience, we're prone to drawing the line so that we're within the "tolerable" zone, and comfortably claim we're covered by Christian Liberty. Why, then, are we so quick to accept Liberty for ourselves, but Law for others? Did Messiah die only for us, so that we could dismiss any laws that we find inconvenient, while enforcing any we find prohibit behaviors we consider odious?

Am I the Righteous Judge, that I can determine who is worthy of Messiah's Grace and who is not? No. If I believe what the Bible says, then I must accept that "whosoever" in John 3:16 means exactly what it says - WHOSOEVER. It doesn't say that "whoever is good enough and believes in Him should not perish."

Our old Rabbi would often pray that those who were seeking Messiah would not stumble over him on their way to finding salvation. Messiah is a stumbling block all on His own, and the only stumbling block anyone should encounter on their way to redemption, because when they stumble over Him, they come face to face with the supernatural aspect of God's plan that is foolish to us. It is sad when my sin keeps me from the blessings of God. It is a tragedy when my sin might keep someone else from the blessings of God.

Whatever logic you want to throw at me to the contrary, I cannot accept. I was brought to the inescapable conclusion that we are to extend the love of God to all, regardless of whether they are repentant or not. If we refuse, then we are the ones who need to repent.

As I said, it was an attitude check for me. M- never came to our congregation, but God wanted me to see what my heart would be like if he did. Part of being conformed to the image of Messiah, is learning to love the way He loved. I'm still not there, but my lesson back then was understanding that it included M-. Jesus loves M-, and wants to draw him to that personal relationship with God, and He pinned me down that I needed to as well.

[Hoomi]

By the way, to my knowledge, M- was not a pedophile. He was undergoing a sex change operation, and whatever pop-psychology concepts were the current trend almost 20 years ago that were applied to individuals seeking said surgery.

[pathlightfinder]

Hoomi, you stated, "Whatever logic you want to throw at me to the contrary, I cannot accept". So I'll be very brief and save space for others.
First, if you have read my earlier posts here you would know that I said that we are to help and urge repentance before shunning them. Second, read 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Timothy 1:20, 2 John 1:11, etc. There are numerous examples where the Bible, not I, say to shun someone. Can you not accpet the logic of the Scrpitures as they are written.
You also stated, "How are we going to do it, if people see that we shun certain sinners, but not others?". How do we do it - explain it. We are only to shun those who continue to be unrepentant - even after we try to help - Gossipers and all equally. And we are to forgive those who do repent - all of them.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

PS - Regarding the OT ordinances you cited we are freed from them - Colossians 2:14. We are are not free from the Law - Matthew 5:18.

[Hoomi]

My understanding of the Scriptures is that those we are to shun for being unrepentant, are those who claim to be believers. M- was not a believer, and the way most believers treated him, I can't say he had much reason to want to be one.

Mike Warnke suffered a serious credibility setback when it was brought to light that some of his testimony was highly embellished, but he made some great points in his tapes. One of those was regarding the concept of coming to Christ. He was addressing the idea of needing to get our lives straightened out before we come toGod. He said, "Let me ask you this - do you need to get cleaned up before you take a bath?"

Jesus called sinners, and discipled them into conforming to His image. He didn't call people who were already perfect Christians, because, if He had, He would have had no one to call. One of the great miracles of the Church is that God uses tragically flawed individuals like us to do His work in this world.

Regardless of what I might think of anyone else, God has a plan and a purpose for them as well, if they will turn to Him and accept His gift. That includes M-.

[pathlightfinder]

My understanding of the Scriptures is that those we are to shun for being unrepentant, are those who claim to be believers. . . .
Regardless of what I might think of anyone else, God has a plan and a purpose for them as well, if they will turn to Him and accept His gift. That includes M-.

Hoomi,
I totally agree with your last statement. As to shunning unbelievers I would consider passages such as 2 Corinthians 6:14 and 1 Corinthians 10:20.
To me, my understanding is that shunning is done much as putting a child in time out. It is not to be a total and permanant rejection. As you pointed out, if I understand you correctly, that would be more apt to repulse a sinner rather than draw them nearer. I delve more into my view of agape in an article on my website but for here I will condense and say the to me agape love is defined as the desire to draw nearer to God, and, as you say, that type of love we should try to share with everyone.
We are complicated beings and oft times I find a "difference of opinion" is more a differnce of degree. Thanks for the dialouge.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

[jo555]

I had some of the same thoughts Hoomi had, but at the same time, I also recognized that there are verses that speak of distancing oneself from unbelievers.

Overall, the way I handle these situations is to try and be led by the Lord as he knows where every heart is, including our own, and what is called for in every situation. There may be a time he would require us to distance ourselves from certain unbelievers, and other times not . . . whether due to their condition or ours, or whatever else is on his heart.

I think we may all agree that an unbeliever is not to be held up to the same standard as a believer. They are to be invited into a relationship with Christ.

I also know, because of the nature of how unbelievers think (and not that we believers don't have our issues), and just the overall conversation of things, hanging with them is not particularly appealing to me in the same sense as it would be with a believer, but I do enjoy when the conversations move onto things that all humans can relate too.

As I see it, Jesus invited unbelievers into a relationship with Him, but friendship was reserved for believers.

On that note...we often hear how Jesus was a friend of sinners...is that scriptural? The only verse that comes to mind with that reference was when the Pharisees were criticizing him. Overall, I recall him being friendly with them, but friendship reserved for believers, those that followed Him.

[pathlightfinder]

Jo555,
I think the verses you are thinking of are probably Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34.
I have quite a few "friends" who are not believers. Over time, some who weren't, have become so. You are both quite right that we can't very well spread the Good News if we come in with judgement first. As a veteran I am a member of the American Legion and the VFW. I sometimes get chastised for talking about religion at the Posts.
For myself I hold it to be a matter of shunning many of the activities of unbelievers. As to shunning anyone, it is a matter of first discussing what action is wrong and why you can't go along with it. Time must be given for anyone to change. Time and help. Just as God is patient with us.
Anyway, enough from me.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

[Hoomi]

I will definitely agree that there is a certain factor of spirit-leading in who we associate with, as I think all of us at one time or another have gotten that, "you need to stay away from this person" feeling, even though we can't intellectually pinpoint a reason why we should. Sometimes it is because the person presents a physical danger to us (i.e. someone prone to violent outbursts, etc.), and sometimes a spiritual danger (sinful influence, strong temptation, etc.). Sometimes, we need to be like Joseph and run like the dickens away from the temptation, like he did from Potiphar's wife. My own suspicion is that he was reaching the point where her advances were becoming much too inviting to him. He was a Godly man, but he was still a man. I'd warrant his flesh wanted to accept her invitations, and the only way for his spirit to win out, was to get away. A good example for us to remember.

This is particularly important when it comes to the "wolves in sheep's clothing" we get in the church. There may not be an obvious pattern of sin for us to identify, but instead, they are engaging in the dangerous practice of twisting Scriptures and doctrines to lead others astray.

[jo555]

Jo555,
I think the verses you are thinking of are probably Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34.
I have quite a few "friends" who are not believers. Over time, some who weren't, have become so. You are both quite right that we can't very well spread the Good News if we come in with judgement first. As a veteran I am a member of the American Legion and the VFW. I sometimes get chastised for talking about religion at the Posts.
For myself I hold it to be a matter of shunning many of the activities of unbelievers. As to shunning anyone, it is a matter of first discussing what action is wrong and why you can't go along with it. Time must be given for anyone to change. Time and help. Just as God is patient with us.
Anyway, enough from me.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

I hear you Wayne...and as we discussed, the repentant factor has it's place too. If someone enjoys treating me poorly, and shows no remorse for the remorse and grief they cause me, then UNLESS GOD TELLS ME TO DO OTHERWISE FOR WHAT HE IS LOOKING TO DO, I am fine with distancing myself from them. I may even become an enabler if I don't.

I also wanted to share this with you as I was reading something I wrote before, and reminded me about what you said on tolerance. Here's how I've shared similar things before:

There really isn't a grey area when it comes to God and his truth. There is light and darkness, good and evil, life and death. We can mistake grace for grey but until we are faced with the reality of the truth and the very evident difference between the Kingdom of Light and the kingdom of darkness, we will not truly see how beautiful the heart of God really is. The gospel will not move us as it should.

Thanks bro,
Jo