Hating the Devil

[beaedwards]

I'm going to jump back into this post with another simple but (to me anyway) clear thought.
I recently read several times through the entire book of Psalms out loud into the unconscious ear of a dear friend.
This morning as I was thinking about jumping into the 'Inerrancy of the Bible' post under this forum-also kind of wondering 'what in the world am I doing here' with all you smart folks?',
I remembered reading these verses and wanted to plop them down and see what happened.
Psalm 139:21-22 specifies a certain instruction followed by Psalm 139:23-24 beseeching God to search us, try us, know us and lead us....

[Paula22466]

David said

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

Wow, I really delayed in getting back to this thread. However, my intentions were good. I wonder if "to God's mind," good intentions are just as "good" as doing the right thing. Or does that only occur (according to David) when we have "bad" intentions, or thoughts. Utterly ridiculous.

I think this is one of those ideas that has been passed down to Christians from well meaning preachers who have not studied what the Bible really says about this issue, and so the tradition has held throughout the years. But I think, if a point is brought to the attention of someone with a wrong idea, they ought to be willing to change what they believe if the Bible makes it clear. If my stubborn self can admit to wrong thinking (concerning reformed theology) anyone can.

It's important to understand there are gradations of sin or we will (as many do) think like a pharisee (the intended audience of Jesus) and begin "majoring in the minors." I don't remember everything I've written here on this subject, but it's worth repeating this truth: the Bible makes it clear that not all sin is equal. Jesus did not say, or imply that lust or hate is "as bad" as the full acts of murder or adultery. Christ's point was that the full measure of the law has a broader application than the outward act, it applies also to the mind. Jesus Himself taught some guilt is greater than others as well as varying degrees of Hell's torment (pretty sure I've made that point which you conceded to).

It makes no sense to say the above is true, yet these two particular sins (adultery & murder) are different, that is illogical exegesis and poor reasoning. We must take the Scriptures as a whole and not build dogmas around a verse here and there. There is clearly a distinction between murder and hate, and if you don't see it, I don't know why you haven't killed someone by now.

[Colswann1]

In the light of how this thread has deviated, what do you make of this scripture? (1John 5: 16-17)

[pheeweed]

"David"

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

Paula, I think you're right about the gradations of sin and you're certainly right about looking at the whole scripture. But I don't think what David (or Jesus) said was talking about was intentions. Hatred is as bad as murder because it is sinful in itself, not because the person who hates intends to kill the object of his hatred. The same with adultery. Going through your life hating someone does not mean you go through your life wanting or planning to kill them.

[Paula22466]

Paula, I think you're right about the gradations of sin and you're certainly right about looking at the whole scripture. But I don't think what David (or Jesus) said was talking about was intentions. Hatred is as bad as murder because it is sinful in itself, not because the person who hates intends to kill the object of his hatred. The same with adultery. Going through your life hating someone does not mean you go through your life wanting or planning to kill them.

Phee...first of all, I didn't say anyone was talking about intentions only. What I am saying is to hate someone, although I agree is certainly a sin, is not "as bad," or as weighty a sin as killing. I think you missed my point. More importantly than what I say, the Bible is clear that all sins are not equal, and for this conversation, Jesus never said or implied that hate is "as bad" as murder.

Colswann, that is a hotly debated scripture and helps to prove my point. Most scholars agree the text shows there are evidently some sins God considers worthy of death. Examples of this are in Acts 5 (the dude who lied about how much money he had made from the sale of his land). Another is in 1 Corinthians 5 where a man is having sex with his father's wife.

[david_ian]

David said

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

Wow, I really delayed in getting back to this thread. However, my intentions were good. I wonder if "to God's mind," good intentions are just as "good" as doing the right thing. Or does that only occur (according to David) when we have "bad" intentions, or thoughts. Utterly ridiculous.

I think this is one of those ideas that has been passed down to Christians from well meaning preachers who have not studied what the Bible really says about this issue, and so the tradition has held throughout the years. But I think, if a point is brought to the attention of someone with a wrong idea, they ought to be willing to change what they believe if the Bible makes it clear. If my stubborn self can admit to wrong thinking (concerning reformed theology) anyone can.

It's important to understand there are gradations of sin or we will (as many do) think like a pharisee (the intended audience of Jesus) and begin "majoring in the minors." I don't remember everything I've written here on this subject, but it's worth repeating this truth: the Bible makes it clear that not all sin is equal. Jesus did not say, or imply that lust or hate is "as bad" as the full acts of murder or adultery. Christ's point was that the full measure of the law has a broader application than the outward act, it applies also to the mind. Jesus Himself taught some guilt is greater than others as well as varying degrees of Hell's torment (pretty sure I've made that point which you conceded to).

It makes no sense to say the above is true, yet these two particular sins (adultery & murder) are different, that is illogical exegesis and poor reasoning. We must take the Scriptures as a whole and not build dogmas around a verse here and there. There is clearly a distinction between murder and hate, and if you don't see it, I don't know why you haven't killed someone by now.

I just know where to bury the bodies.

This never was a discussion about ALL sin being equal, but it somehow got there, I suppose because that's an easier proof to produce.

Matt 5.21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment."

Subject to judgment it says. Are we looking at some lessor judgment for some lessor offense?

The scriptures goes on to say "anyone who hates a brother or a sister is a murderer." (1 John 3.15) Which creates more of a closer relationship between thought and deed than Paula would like to represent exists in the passage concerning lust/adultry hatred/killing. It's pretty straight forward, actually, and quite to the point.

When Jesus says, Matt 5.27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." the sin of adultery has been committed. That's what's being said. It's not as egregious in that a second party has not conspired in this sin, but in terms of the person of focus here, adultery is being committed.

Note in other instances, we are culpabable even though we don't even have to have to have an existing antagonism, but merely the lack of compassion which should reside within one consumed with God's Love "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?" (1 John 3.17) There is an expectation to act upon an assumed compassion; if none exists, how can one claim to be operating with God's love.
also "Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness." (1 John 2.9) I suppose that also goes for burying bodies as well...

[Paula22466]

This never was a discussion about ALL sin being equal, but it somehow got there, I suppose because that's an easier proof to produce.

It "got there" because you claimed Jesus said "lust and adultery are equivalent," as with murder and hatred. I get a little testy when people claim Jesus said stuff He didn't say, and you're right, it is easily proven, so why do you keep trying to argue? As for the rest of your post, it just didn't interest me.

While Jesus reveals the thoroughness that is required for true obedience to God’s law, He does not say anger and homicide are equally deserving of capital punishment. While both can cut us off from God, murder carries with it more severe consequences both in this world and in the next.

When Jesus said hatred carries the same kind of guilt as murder, and lust is the very essence of adultery, He was not suggesting that there is no difference in degree between sin that takes place in the mind and sin that is acted out. Scripture does not teach that all sins are of equal enormity. That some sins are worse than others is both patently obvious and thoroughly biblical. Scripture plainly teaches this, for example, when it tells us the sin of Judas was greater than the sin of Pilate (John 19:11).

[pathlightfinder]

I am new here but will risk a few observations on this thread so far.
First regarding the "graduations of sin". Consider that we are to forgive our brothers for sins against us - if they repent. If my brother kills me I can not forgive him. If he hates me and repents I can and should forgive him. This tells me the thought and the action hold a potenial difference of consequence. The "guilt" may be the same at the onset but differ in developement. For those saved by Grace this implies, to me, a difference in the loss or gain of reward in Heaven. For the damned it then follows that there will be an increase or decrease in punishment.
Second, lust and adultery are not the same thing. Adultery is the act or desire for a married person that is not your spouse.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

[david_ian]

This never was a discussion about ALL sin being equal, but it somehow got there, I suppose because that's an easier proof to produce.

It "got there" because you claimed Jesus said "lust and adultery are equivalent," as with murder and hatred. I get a little testy when people claim Jesus said stuff He didn't say, and you're right, it is easily proven, so why do you keep trying to argue? As for the rest of your post, it just didn't interest me.

Saying one sin has equivalence to another is not the same as saying ALL sin equate to each other, but you refuted the latter not the former.

There still remains corroborating scripture of 1 John which support the "stuff" Jesus said.

"Jesus says [anger] is so evil as deserving to be bracketed with murder. Many would agree readily enough that the intention, held back maybe only by fear of consequences, is like the act itself. But Jesus goes a good deal further that that. He declares the attitude of mind of the angry man to be one of murder. His word for “angry” (v. 22) implies personal involvement and a deliberate hostility, not a detached judicial anger (if there be such a thing). Men may choose to make a distinction between anger and murder, but he-Jesus-will have none ot this whittling down or limitation of the Sixth Commandment.
The apostle John got the message, and repeated it in plain style: “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him” (1 Jn. 3:15). But that withering apodosis is made easier to the soul by the context’s implication that the Love Feast John writes about changes a man’s status from “murderer” to forgiven sinner." --Harry Witaker .

God hates name calling, gossiping, insulting someone, grudges, abusive looks or gestures as much as murder! Our doctrines say it this way in Heidelberg Catechism, Answer 106: "By forbidding murder God teaches us that he hates the root of murder: envy, hatred, anger, vindictiveness." What God hates is under his judgment. It deserves hell. It is sin. Jesus went to the cross for that. We will be called to account for every careless word on Judgment Day. (Matthew 12:36)." Rev. Nicolaas Cornelisse, Calvary CRC, Ottawa, Ont.

In Matthew 5:28, when Jesus said, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart," Jesus was actually combining the 7th and the 10th commandments when he pointed out that "lusting" or "coveting" a woman is actually committing adultery.
The 7th commandment (Exodus 20:14) says "You shall not commit adultery. " And the 10th commandment, Exodus 20:17 says, "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Jesus was pointing out that "coveting" a woman is a form of adultery.
The Hebrew word “chamad”, in the 10th commandment which we translate as "covet", is very similar to the Greek word "epithumeo", which we translate as "lust".
The Hebrew word for “covet” in Exodus 20:17 is the transliterated word “chamad” which can mean, “to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in.”
The Greek word for "lust" in Matthew 5:28 is the transliterated word, “epithumeo” which can mean, “to covet things forbidden, to desire earnestly; to have a longing desire for.”

[pathlightfinder]

David,

You state that Jesus was pointing out that "coveting" was a form of adultery. Please cite that scrptiture for me - I have dozens of translations and have never seen that. Second, you compare/contrast (a Strong's break down of?) "lust" and "covet" but not adultery. Why?
You also did not address how you can't forgive a person who kills you versus forgiving a person who hates you and repents.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

PS - Regarding hating the devil, you can hate an action without hating the actor. We are to love our enemies - I have an article titled "Agape- The Meaning of Christian Love" on my website in the Previous Articles section that will better explain than the space here allows.
https://thepathtolight.com/Agape.php

PSS - Kudos on originating such a lively and long running topic!

[Paula22466]

There still remains corroborating scripture of 1 John which support the "stuff" Jesus said.

Why why why do you pluck out verses here and there and try to make them prove your point without looking at the context? What is your motive here, to win an argument or to do an honest exegesis?

Above, you are referring to 1 John 3:15

Who is the author? John, who doesn't write in generalities - everything is YES and NO
For example, 1 John 3:6b says, no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. People also pluck this verse out desiring to make it mean genuine Christians will never sin, or genuine Christians have the ability to never sin again. Would you like to go there?

Who is he writing to? The churches of Asia Minor who at the time were being infiltrated by false teachers desiring to pervert the apostolic teaching, most likely the beginnings of gnosticism. First John's theme is "getting back to the fundamentals" of Christianity, and instructing the churches in not only how to react to these false teachers, but how to recognize them. True believers, according to John will demonstrate obedience to God, steadfast faith, and love for God and others - always without exception.

So when John says, Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, he is not teaching, as you say, that murder and hate carry the same weight, are the same sin, or are requiring the same judgment. His point is that anyone who has allowed hate to rule, is a murderer, literally, because all murder begins with hate, and hate carried out to its logical end will result in murder. If someone who hates is not a murderer, it's not the hate which is the issue, it's the lack of hate. Just above this passage, in vs 12 - John gives the example of Cain who hated his brother and murdered him.

Furthermore, if John, in 3:15, meant to say that anyone who hates is guilty of murder, then NO ONE would make it to Heaven because in the same verse he goes on to say, "no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." All people hate, believers and non. But a true believer will not abide in, make a practice of, or be in the habit of hate.

[jo555]

Not sure if I am understanding the discussion on hate and murder, but I always took it as one in the same.

How I've seen it:

If I hate another, at heart, at least my carnal heart of flesh, I have murdered them on a type of spiritual level...

I don't see it as carrying the same weight as physically murdering someone for there are additional consequences to pay if I give into my old nature, instead of denying it rule over me.

It kinda reminds me of a recent conversation I had with another Christian as I told them of my ill feelings for another, and not happy about giving into my feelings. They told me to be myself. Don't try and be someone I am not.

So I had to ask myself, "Am I being a hypocrite, those times I don't respond how I am feeling at the time?"

I've concluded that no, I am not. Well, we don't always know ourselves so at times maybe I am being hypocritical, but as I see it, I am a new creation in Christ. That part of me that still feels hate at times, that still can covet, and commit adultery...in my fallen natural heart, is not the real me. By the power of the Holy Spirit in Christ, I can deny the old nature. If I don't, and instead feed it, it can lead to carrying out what's in the natural heart in the natural domain.

Besides, acting out how we feel is not considering how our actions, or reactions, can affect others.

Isn't this part of the role of the law? Not only does it show us ourselves and is a sort of guide until we come into faith in Christ, but it also helps keep some order in a fallen world?

So now I am considering what James said about faith. He said faith without works is dead and he used the example of Abraham carrying out his faith (believe that is the example he used).

Does this mean that hate, without the carrying out of an act of murder, makes murder dead?

I see it as yes and no. In the physical it is dead, but on a spiritual level, if I hate, it is alive. Yet, we ourselves are to reckon that aspect of ourselves dead for we died with Christ so that we may live anew in Him; so that we may live in the Spirit, walking after the Spirit, not the flesh.

So I believe James was covering how these things begin in the spiritual level, but comes to completion in the natural as we work out what has been worked in.

Sin, any sin, is not walking in love and in that aspect it's all the same. Yet, the bible does mention that there are some sins that do carry more weight than others, as already mentioned.

One I don't recall reading here is when Jesus mentioned offense. As a Christian I was always hearing emphasis on not taking offense. Yet, as I recall, Jesus seemed to put more weight on the one by whom the offenses come. I wondered why that was rarely ever mentioned. It's not an excuse to take on offenses for we need to look at our relationship with God first, but it does help me on a personal level to know that the full weight of the situation, at least when it comes to human relationships, is not solely mine.

What say ya?

[beaedwards]

Interesting points regarding sin at the spiritual level, which is where we begin to grieve the Spirit.
But especially provoking was your question about offence. I heard a teacher years ago state that the word offence comes from the Greek root scandalon (sp?) which was the bait at the end of the hook that drew the prey into the trap.
In other words offence sets us up for ALL kinds of traps. The biggest trap being our the affects on our attitude and spiritual man because when offended we begin the process of judging the offender....it's a vicious circle that the enemy uses well to his advantage.

[pathlightfinder]

All people hate, believers and non. But a true believer will not abide in, make a practice of, or be in the habit of hate.

Kudos to you Paula! So many overlook the difference between an uncharacteristic action or emotion and a pattern of behavior or feeling. This always amazes since the difference can literally be Heaven or hell.

In Brotherly Love

Wayne

[jo555]

Interesting points regarding sin at the spiritual level, which is where we begin to grieve the Spirit.
But especially provoking was your question about offence. I heard a teacher years ago state that the word offence comes from the Greek root scandalon (sp?) which was the bait at the end of the hook that drew the prey into the trap.
In other words offence sets us up for ALL kinds of traps. The biggest trap being our the affects on our attitude and spiritual man because when offended we begin the process of judging the offender....it's a vicious circle that the enemy uses well to his advantage.

True . . . and again, seeing how our human relationships can affect us is no excuse to bypass our responsibility to God foremost, to come from his heart out of love for Him.

I've just seen where we can put the full weight of an offense on the offended, yet not consider our role in it. Maybe we did nothing wrong so not saying it is all that, but just how we can act out of malice instead of love and then look to put the full weight on the offended, instead of sharing in the responsibility.

It's no excuse not to come from God's Heart, but it is comforting to know that even God weighs in on these things...

I haven't heard or read much on that...generally the focus has been on not being offended when the Word of God emphasizes more weight on the offender.

Reminds me of a conversation I came across with two Christians. One was judging the other's heart and when she gave a rebuttal he would say, "Don't take it personal."

I loved her reply that went something like this, "It is personal for you are judging my intentions."

I was thinking, You go girl!

We are a funny bunch.