Do as you want

[Colswann1]

St. Augustine of Hippo said words to the effect of, 'Love God and do what you want', and some of my Christian peer friends have latched on to this.

I personally struggle with such a concept and find it hard to reconcile this with Jesus' words, 'If you love me keep my commandments', which would make it, 'If you love me do as you like'.

What do you think?

[RedBaron]

God's word trumps some man-appointed saint's words any time.

[JD]

I agree with Shari.

[beaedwards]

Me to - agree with Shari I mean.

[swfdoc1]

Read Augustine's comments in context and see what you think.

[RedBaron]

Read Augustine's comments in context and see what you think.

Link?

[Opinion8ed]

I have heard that quote also and it struck me as so wrong. Of course, what the saint meant was that if we truly love God we will only want to do what He wants us to. Of course, if we didn't dwell in the flesh that might work. Certainly after accepting Christ we have more desire to do what God wants but we are unable to perfectly do so. Romans 7.

We have far too many verses telling us to struggle against sin, to flee earthly lusts, etc., to think that we can do what we want even after we are saved and have the Spirit. The flesh will always plague us.

So, although I am sure the saint meant well, the phrase should more correctly be - Love God and do what He wants. However, it is very unpopular to say something like that in this age of post-modernism where actions do not matter, only love.

[swfdoc1]

Read Augustine's comments in context and see what you think.

Link?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.pdf This contains Augustine's Homily on I John 4: 4-12, from which the quotation comes. I will leave it to each person to decide what you think adequate context is. For me, it's at least what he wrote on vv. 7-8, maybe the rest of this homily, and probably portions of his Homily on I John 4: 12-16 (available at the same link).

[Come forth]

Thanks, Steve for posting the link and giving everyone the chance to actually read what we are discussing.

It is interesting to note that the actual quote is not do what you 'want' but in fact 'do what you wilt (will)'. But, for me at least, the sentence goes on to make it clear that a true paraphrase would read like this; "Love, and do what you will governed by this love" He even goes on making this point solid, if you correct, correct in love, if you hold your peace, hold it in love, if you cry out, cry out in love.

The difference between the words 'want' and 'will', for me, speak of the difference between following my desires and following my ability to choose what I will. I have the ability to both 'will' and 'wont' as an intelligent choice rather than just 'I want so I shall have'. Quite a major difference.

It is amazing how many ways we can distort the Word of God, and those who comment upon it, by simply taking a few short words, not even correctly interpreted, out of context.

Colin, your interpretation is supported by the very quote itself.

Blessings, Graham.

[swfdoc1]

Ultimately, there may be a reason to reject what Augustine says; I’m still chewing on that. But I don’t think this means anything that I’ve read in this thread yet.

He says, observing actions does not tell us the actor’s heart (as per his comment on v. 7 comparing the same actions by the Father, the Son, and Judas). Hard to disagree with.

He says, now let’s take a harder case: different (opposite) actions, one of which we would superficially assume is better/more loving than the other. Again, even with different actions, the actions don’t reveal the heart: fatherly blows (which may seem unloving) are far superior to the caresses of a “boy stealer” (kidnapper? pedophile? Kidnapping pedophile?).

Then, in applying these principles, he says “love.” Don’t, as Judas did, do an identical act to one done by the Father and the Son, but with a very wrong motive. Don’t, as the boy stealer did, do an act that appears loving, but is actually evil. I think in that context, “what you will” very likely carries the meaning “what you think is necessary.” Look at his examples, they are opposite pairs. And that is no accident. BUT these opposites are unlike the opposites of the father and the boy stealer. There, one is right because it is motivated by love; the other is wrong because it is motivated by evil. Here, one is right because it is motivated by love; it is what love calls for in the situation. However, the opposite can also be right when it is motivated by love and what love calls for.

So taking all this together, Augustine cautions against making three mistakes:

1. Do not make the mistake of assuming all similar actions come from the same motivation (of love).
2. Do make the mistake of assuming the “harsh” (as just an example) is unloving and the “soft” is loving. Love and evil-heartedness are more nuanced than this.
3. Do not make the mistake of assuming that opposite actions cannot both demonstrate the love of the actor’s heart.

Remember that one of the overall points of the passage he is “opening up” is how to know what love is.

[tomoral]

I always thought it was love God and do as you like, meaning the only thing you should Like to do is worshop and please God....

Just saying.

[Opinion8ed]

John 14:15
“ If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me;

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

2John 1:5-6 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Keeping His commandments is our duty whether we "like" them or not. Unfortunately, as nice as it sounds to say Love Him and do what you like, none of us "like" doing the will of God ALL the time. We grow into that as we grow in Him, but regardless of liking or wanting we have to work hard at resisting and denying and obeying. It's a nice saying and I know what Augustine meant. I did not read the things on the link but I do know that sayings like that one can easily be grasped by people who do not want to obey but like to say the "love" God. In this current age I would be careful about sharing that statement with people in general because they will take it at face value without understanding the full meaning and, believe me, I know, they will use it as an excuse for living in ways that are forbidden and unpleasing to the Lord.

I find it similar to the statement by St. Francis, "Preach the gospel always, and when necessary use words." That's a nice out for actually witnessing with our words, literally sharing the gospel verbally, which is also very unpopular these days. We'd much rather get away with saying we just have to live so that we show that we love God and others. Unfortunately that often doesn't go along with "preach the gospel". At some point, regardless of how well you live your life, someone is going to have to explain the way of salvation.

Acts 8:30-32
New International Version (NIV)
30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

So, both these saints said something that is correct and they knew what they meant but if we just throw out these sayings without explanation they can easily be misread, particularly if someone wants to misread them.

[swfdoc1]

Opinion8ed,

I 1) agree with you on one point, 2) disagree with you on one point, and 3) (seemingly) think the original post was about something different than you do.

I will address my points in the order 2, 1, 3:

Re: point 2:

With all due respect—and I mean that literally, not figuratively or as a throwaway line—I think you do NOT know what Augustine meant. I could be wrong but I base that opinion on two statements: In your second post, you wrote “I did not read the things on the link.” In both your first and second posts you wrote that you KNEW what Augustine meant (first post: “Of Course, what the saint meant was . . . .”; second post: “I know what Augustine meant”).

I know that what I am about to write may come across as rather aggressive; that comes from training students to engage in VALID argumentation. Believe me, I do not intend to be inappropriately aggressive, only to push you to support your views.

Really? HOW do you know? Have you read the quotation in context previously? If so, it seems you would have plainly so stated. If you have not, I suggest that your KNOWING is dead wrong.

I have already stated what I believe Augustine meant. I could also be wrong, but at least it is based on a serious wrestling with the text in its context.

I do not believe Augustine’s admonition has anything to do with “liking” or “wanting.” My view--which I posted previously--is further supported by one of the key definitions of “will”:

Merriam Webster says:

used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will>

this matches what I said:

swfdoc1 says:
I think in that context, “what you will” very likely carries the meaning “what you think is necessary.”

Furthermore, Augustine is NOT talking about God’s commandments per se. He is talking about—and you MUST read the context to see this—how to decide which course of action to take (when, pursuant to God’s commandments, one way would be correct according to one commandment in some circumstances; and another way would be correct according to a different commandment in another situation). And lest anyone think this is an endorsement of situational ethics on my part, IT IS NOT—I abhor situational ethics. (But that last sentence is a rabbit trail that I will NOT pursue here or in response to replies.)

Re: point 1:

I agree—EVEN IF I am correct about Augustine’s meaning and even if that meaning is good theology (which I have yet to firmly accept)—with this statement of yours: “If we just throw out these sayings without explanation they can easily b e misread, particularly if someone wants to misread them.”

While I was trying to find an easy link for the Augustine quotation, I can across many references to something called the Wiccan Rede. If you care to research this, you note the similarly of the Rede to Augustine's quotation, YET you will also notice the absence of any reference to “love,” which is replaced with the concept of “do no harm.” “Do not harm,” of course, is completely malleable when divorced from a divine moral standard. Nonetheless, I think this is an example of your valid concern about sharing Augustine’s words to anyone and everyone--an (arguably) valid Christian admonition can be morphed into a pagan buzz phrase.

However, this leads me to my thoughts on point 3.

Re point 3:

I did not understand the original post to be asking whether we SHOULD share this saying. I understood to be asking, in effect, “Given that certain people have already latched onto this saying, what do you think of it?” My first comment, in effect, was “Read it in context and decide what you think of it.” I still think that is good advice. First of all, whether one ultimately agrees or disagrees with Augustine, it is an opportunity for Colin (and others) to say, “Well, this comes from Augustine’s commentary on I John 4. Let’s look at that passage AND his commentary, and see what we think.” I believe this could be especially fruitful since Colin describes these folks as “peers.”

[Opinion8ed]

No problem, Steve. I shouldn't really have jumped in here without having better understood what the question was and taken it all a little more seriously. I saw Augustine's statement as pretty simple and in my simplicity said that I "know" what he meant. Sorry.

I'm a bit sensitive about using anything that people can take as an excuse to live however they like and say all that matters is that they "love" God and God loves them. I have a daughter who says that she knows she isn't doing anything wrong, when clearly she is, because God loves her no matter what she does. She's right, of course, but wrong also. Like Augustine said to my simple way of thinking, if she truly loves God she will want to live the way He wants her to which would mean obeying Him.

Anyway, my main point was not that I KNOW what Augustine meant in his saying. My main point is that sayings like that, when just thrown out there on their own can cause a lot of damage because many people won't try and figure out what's really behind the phrase.

I don't care if it's do what you want or do what you will or what you think is right. That's not what matters to me. What matters to me is that I have heard this quote used in a sermon without any explanation, like it was some catchy little phrase, and I think that's dangerous.

So, I shouldn't have said anything. Sorry I took it kind of light and simply.

[swfdoc1]

I'm a bit sensitive about using anything that people can take as an excuse to live however they like and say all that matters is that they "love" God and God loves them. I have a daughter who says that she knows she isn't doing anything wrong, when clearly she is, because God loves her no matter what she does. She's right, of course, but wrong also. Like Augustine said to my simple way of thinking, if she truly loves God she will want to live the way He wants her to which would mean obeying Him.

. . . .

My main point is that sayings like that, when just thrown out there on their own can cause a lot of damage because many people won't try and figure out what's really behind the phrase.

I don't care if it's do what you want or do what you will or what you think is right. That's not what matters to me. What matters to me is that I have heard this quote used in a sermon without any explanation, like it was some catchy little phrase, and I think that's dangerous.

I totally agree!