Hating the Devil

[david_ian]

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

I have a really hard time with this--seems that while the mental state is sinful, it doesn't make it as sinful. Taking a view that any amount of fallenness=less than godliness and tainting one radically is one thing, but to say that God doesn't differentiate levels of sinfulness just doesn't seem to come next.

Heya Soren!

Well, let's look I'm referencing here.
Matt 5.27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." I read that as an equation: if you've done the act in your heart, you have committed that sin as if it were the action.
Same with “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment and 1 John 3.15 "Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer"

I'm not seeing some kind of "2nd degree murder" or "2nd degree adultry" applied here, and I think that's the point of the passage, not only is it a state of sin to desire or embrace a sin in the heart, but an equivalent one to the actual action in these cases.

Which is why I say that if someone says, "Well, there certainly is a lot of adultery and murder going on lately" it doesn't follow necessarily to say, "Sin is on the increase." And then to use the proof that society is on the downfall due to a rise in "volume" of sin.

Paula sez:

Agree with Soren (SOREN!) ...
Jesus’ words to Pilate: “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin" (John 19:11).

Jesus asked, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?" Matt 7:3-4

Paula, you seem to be proofing that one sin is greater than another, which is not the same as the sin of the heart vs. same sin of action being greater.

[david_ian]

Hey! That autolink to the Bible verse is Awesome!

[beaedwards]

Glad you like it! Mike is pretty great huh?

[Paula22466]

Paula, you seem to be proofing that one sin is greater than another, which is not the same as the sin of the heart vs. same sin of action being greater.

Why isn't it? You are claiming the sin of thought is equal to the action and you are claiming this is what Jesus said. I think you're missing the whole point of the two passages you quoted. What Christ wanted people (Pharisees particularly) to understand is that just because you don't do the action of murder, adultery, etc...doesn't mean your thoughts are not sinful in themselves and that God judges our thoughts (intents of the heart) as well as our actions.

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc.

The Bible teaches all sins whether in thought or deed lead to the same penalty and no sin is too small, neither is any sin too large for God to forgive through Christ. However, this does not in any way mean all sins are equal in severity, and I don't think that's what Jesus meant in the verses you posted. Furthermore, the text I posted should be clear in refuting that, although I'm sure there are more.

[Come forth]

David_Ian wrote:

Even in Christ's time there was a disparaging difference between what was Sin to hate and when Grace should apply. I'm not of a mind that there is such a current collapse of external morals and declare society as downfallen. Especially, if we are attempting to use the actions of the unSaved as a litmus for whether or not Sin has fundamentally changed in the minds of the Redeemed.

I'm amazed David that anyone today can even question if there is a decline in external morals or if society is downfallen. Homosexuality is at levels similar to Sodom, same sex marriages are not only becoming legal but also common place and adoption into these relationships, which within themselves are 100% incapable of reproduction, is also now common place. Obesity is now the norm (you mentioned gluttony as a sin), leaders all over the world lie to get elected and break promises once they are. And, of course, these are only natural reflections of a very downfallen spiritual condition.

Adultery and homosexuality are used in the Scripture to teach us about false gods and about spiritual idolatry. And this in turn brings us to a very important point; the condition of the World isn't even the point, it's always been and always will be in sin. It's the attitude of the redeemed that is important.

John 12:46-48 tells us that even Jesus isn't too surprised by the state of the World and declares it is already judged by the Word He has spoken (which also means by the Word He has lived; for the Hebrew mindset it is the way you live that proves what comes out of your mouth, which is true in any mindset). It is not the downfallen world that is a sign of the end, it is the apathy of the church towards the sin of the World. The church today is afraid to speak out against homosexuality, abortion, same sex marriage, adoption issues, genetic science and many, many more issues that are offensive to God. Not only afraid but gagged by law; and thereby obeying man instead of God.

Which leads to a fulfillment of Amos 8:11; there is a famine of the Word in todays society. Now please, before you say that the Word is preached more today than it ever has been, realize that here the Word is paralleled with food. Malnutrition does not have to be because of a lack of food, it is actually because of a lack of nutritional food. The Word may be preached today, but it isn't preached in its full truth and most are in a state of spiritual malnutrition. That is why homosexuals have the pulpits, are married "in the sight" of God in the churches and many, many other issues run rife in our churches.

Which, by the way, is as it was declared it would be; Matt 24:12. Our love for the "TRUTH" of the Word has waxed cold and we defend peoples right to choice. I also defend their right to choice. It is a God given right and no-one should be allowed to take it away from them. But the "TRUTH" of the Word is that it is also a choice between life and death; Deut 30:19. The right to choose is God given, but so is the consequence of that choice.

Major point here, God loves every single person who makes a wrong choice. He loves them so much He deliberately made a choice of His own; to die for them. John 3:16. Everyone of us have made wrong choices that leads to death and I judge NO-ONE for the choices they have made or are still making. But, again John 12:46-48, the Word does judge them just as it judges you and I.

david_ian wrote:
Paula, you seem to be proofing that one sin is greater than another, which is not the same as the sin of the heart vs. same sin of action being greater.

1John 5:16 makes it clear that there is a sin that leads to death and a sin which does not. I"ll be honest and admit to a lack of revelation on the issue; I do not know which sin is which and don't want to be, nor can be, the one who decides which is which. But I do know that there is death just around the corner for literally millions of the World's population. That is why our first aim and task in this world should be the great commission; Matt 28:18ff. But even the great commission is often part of that falling away from the "TRUTH" of the Word.

The commission does not end at bringing people into a relationship with their Saviour. It goes on into baptism (which for brevity I wont explain but declare that is is far more than just a dunk in water; it is a total change in character and behavior) and "teaching to obey"; Matt 28:19-20.

We have a responsibility to preach the Word, in love and acceptance, so that people will be drawn into relationship with their Father and Creator. But we also have a responsibility to teach the truth of what that Word expects of us and the importance of obedience to that Word. We are blind to that truth if we then start to make a million excuses for sins, in action or thought, without teaching honest confrontation of self and repentance; which also means a change of life's direction and a change in the choices we make.

I apologize to anyone who is offended by my outright talk in regards to homosexuality or abortion. My talk is not aimed at "persons" or choices. They are yours to make; but I "FAIL" in love if I do not also point out that every choice we make has consequence.

Blessings, Graham.

[jo555]

Jesus also mentioned the lady with the alabaster box as an example of someone that would love him more and the basis of...if memory serves me correct, was her awareness of how sinful she was.

Additionally, we have the story he told about two guys. One was aware of his sin and confessed, the otherwasn't, just looked down on the first. He thought himself better.

Wrote an article on this topic once so will be quoting from there next:

"The good news of the gospel is one of forgiveness of sins and reconciliation through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. It's not one of no sin, nor one of condemnation, but one of reconciliation. The gospel in its simplest form is the most powerful. We can trust it to accomplish its purpose.

As we learn to trust God through the darkness instead of denying its existence, we will see how beautiful his light really is. To say that Jesus died because of his great love for us is an incomplete picture. Love may have been the motivation, yet sin was the reason."


And then:
Romans 5:20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


More coins in the bucket.

[jo555]

On the topic of degrees of sin, I see that. I believe everything apart from the Lord and his Heart is sinful, yet within that there are degrees of sin...and scriptures have been quoted already...

[Paula22466]

We are blind to that truth if we then start to make a million excuses for sins, in action or thought, without teaching honest confrontation of self and repentance; which also means a change of life's direction and a change in the choices we make.

I know I took the above quote out of context, but I just want to be sure that no one thinks I am "making excuses for sin," and I agree completely with your post. It doesn't matter what degree of sin one commits if they are unwilling to repent. In the church, however, it gets a little tiring to constantly hear (and I do constantly hear it) "all sin is the same to God." Either way, it's not an issue worth being dogmatic about.

[Soren2007]

Wow. Now I remember how difficult it can be for me to involve myself in a thread like this.

It's gotten off-topic a bit but some good points have come out of that slight turn. Then the rage against sinners and sins comes out and the need for the real truth to remain strong for the true believers. Yikes.

I'm not even sure I believe in free choice, if it is biblical at all, and what that means about consequences and judgment. I tend to believe that at least the illusion of freedom goes a long way to understanding anxiety and motivation in humans. But building dogma on these concepts with so much disagreement about the core issure related to morality (choice and personage) just seems like such a scary thing, and taking that and applying it to groups of people fitting a certain behavior is really scary.

Trying to stay more on point with the OP, I see no call to hate the devil, or demons, or any groups of people or beings in Scripture.

[Come forth]

Soren2007

It's gotten off-topic a bit but some good points have come out of that slight turn. Then the rage against sinners and sins comes out and the need for the real truth to remain strong for the true believers. Yikes.

I think you have misread what has been said. I haven't been back through the entire thread but nowhere do I read a "rage against sinners". In fact, I don't remember anyone "raging" against anything. I do know that the point has been made several times that the "sinner" is not to be hated or turned against and that we have ALL sinned. God loves the "sinner"; so how can we ever justify hating them? Which also means hating ourselves because we too have sinned.

I put the word "sinner" in inverted commas because I want to display an importance. We are ALL "sinners" and while there has been discussion on degrees of sin it has also been stated that all unrepentant sin is in need of action.

Jesus called Himself "the Way, the Truth and the Life"; John 14:6. He was constantly telling people that He was telling the truth; Luke 4:25, Luke 9:27, Luke 21:3, John 8:40 are just some examples. He said very clearly that "the Truth would set you free"; John 8:32. And sin not faced with truth and honesty can not be repented of.

I believe that, without any doubt at all, the concept of free choice is very Biblical. Gen 2:16-17 very clearly shows God giving man a choice. This choice was explained in great detail by Moses in several chapters of Deuteronomy. At the climax of his speech about curses and blessings Moses went on to be very blunt about choice and its consequence and reward; Deut 30:15-19.

In the New Testament Jesus was asked a few times about how to receive the Kingdom or what was required to be called a follower (the rich man who was told to sell all and the man who was told to let the dead bury the dead are just two examples). In each case Christ's answer involved a choice. And Matt 6:33 tells very strongly that we have a choice to make in regards to seeking either the needs of this world or the Kingdom and God's provision.

And I just want to gently say that this is not a "dogma". It is a truth of Scripture which really is central to salvation. Without the Truth of who Jesus is, there is no salvation. And part of that truth is not only that He paid the price, but what He paid the price for. He paid the price for sin. Now be it the sin of lying, gluttony, theft or homosexuality, that is what He paid the price for. Without admitting that this is the sin in our lives, repenting of it and turning to a life that deals with it, how can there be salvation?

Someone earlier said that we need to hate the sin we do before we will deal with it. I think there is a lot of truth in this. I know and admit that I hate it when I fall down over and over on the same issue; not to be confused with condemnation and self beating. But it is certainly a motivation to get back up and deal with it when you get to the point where you hate falling over.

We need reconciliation with the Father. Why? Because of sin. You cannot talk about "hating the devil" without talking about sin and its effect in your life. The two subjects go hand in hand simply because the devil is the one who wants to prevent that reconciliation by keeping you in sin. He is the enemy of Matt 13:39 who sows a false word in amongst the Truth of the Word. And Gal 4:16 tells us we become the enemy of others when we speak the truth. And James 4:4 says that we become an enemy to God if we befriend the ways of the world. An enemy to God, wow! That to me sounds very dangerous indeed.

The entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation (read the choice offered to the seven churches in Revelation) is about our choice to either serve God or the enemy. This includes the 'enemy within'; in Rom 7:18-25 Paul speaks about his struggle with the inner man and Rom 8:7 tells us that the carnal mind is an enemy of God.

Another interesting thought is a reflection on the word "hate". In Hebrew, that word hate can be translated as "enemy". Hebrew scholars, even when they disagree on interpretations, will tell you that the English language is an abstract language while the Hebrew language is a concrete language. What this means is that English is more tied up with concepts of feelings, emotions and thoughts. Asked to describe a camel we will talk about its legs, neck, hair, size and hump. The Hebrew language is concrete because it would simply get to the point and tell you it's what you ride into the desert. In the Hebrew language a pencil is not a piece of wood, several inches long with lead in the center, it is what you write with.

With that in mind, should hate be filled with the 'emotional' loading that we westerner's put on the word or should we simply see that ANYTHING which is not filled with the love of God is simply the enemy. Interestingly they also see "love", at least in part, as an act of making the right choice. if you love something or someone you CHOOSE to serve them and die for them. Jesus, a Hebrew, did just this. We get too emotional about the word hate because we think it describes an emotion; it doesn't. It describes an enemy. That enemy is sin, that enemy is satan. And that enemy keeps you from reconciliation with the Father.

Blessings, Graham

[jo555]

Wow. Now I remember how difficult it can be for me to involve myself in a thread like this.

It's gotten off-topic a bit but some good points have come out of that slight turn. Then the rage against sinners and sins comes out and the need for the real truth to remain strong for the true believers. Yikes.

I'm not even sure I believe in free choice, if it is biblical at all, and what that means about consequences and judgment. I tend to believe that at least the illusion of freedom goes a long way to understanding anxiety and motivation in humans. But building dogma on these concepts with so much disagreement about the core issure related to morality (choice and personage) just seems like such a scary thing, and taking that and applying it to groups of people fitting a certain behavior is really scary.

Trying to stay more on point with the OP, I see no call to hate the devil, or demons, or any groups of people or beings in Scripture.

Soren, first...Hi!!! Been awhile.

Anywayz, I would have to go back through it all myself (not sure if I read all of it) yet I didn't catch raging either, but with the written word it can be hard to determine those things, at least on my end...

In the end I can only speak for myself. I wasn't even mad, just joining in on the conversation.

Overall I wanted to say...which I wanted to come back and say anyway before even reading this...I don't believe that the sin message should be exalted above the Good News of the gospel...Jesus coming to set the captives free, heal the sick, etc...the message of reconciliation (even as sin fits in that message). I also wanted to add that the cross of Jesus Christ was just a cross to me until I saw my wretchedness. It was then that my heart could be moved by it and sing, "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind but now I see."

And I do believe that my experience lines up with what scripture says on the topic.

It's all just knowledge and talk until you can relate. Of course, I can need reminding that, "If not for the grace of God, there go I." Even Paul needed a thorn in the flesh...if he was indeed speaking of himself.

Can say more on the topic and may later...maybe...we'll see what time allows and if I feel it may be worth mentioning now.

Some more coins in the bucket.
Nice seeing ya.

[jo555]

On free choice...

I believe that God is in control. Always has been, always will be, and never lost it.

Think of that like a big cirlce. Now within that big circle is freewill. I believe it is God's will to allow us to exercise our free will WITHIN the boundaries of his will.

Some may say, "Well, then we really don't have freewill."

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I believe we do, within that boundary of his will.

Another way of seeing that big circle and within it is taking into consideration if passages in scriptures are refering to the individual journey or the corporate journey.

Another branching out...term I prefer over hijacking (hee, hee), but really...

Anyway, just had to share the depths of my wisdom and knowledge again...ouch! Did I just feel a thorn being driven in my side. Head shrinking...

I think I'm funny, but that's me.

Anywayzzzzzzzzzzzzz I enjoyed this. Good input all around. Not that I agree with everything, but I am not always sure I agree with myself either.

Good night.

[Colswann1]

Well, all that's clear! At least we know the Devil hates us.

[david_ian]

Paula, you seem to be proofing that one sin is greater than another, which is not the same as the sin of the heart vs. same sin of action being greater.

Why isn't it?

Because it is not the same. To say that a sin (generic) can be greater than another doesn't proof that one specific sin is less than another specific sin.

You are claiming the sin of thought is equal to the action and you are claiming this is what Jesus said. I think you're missing the whole point of the two passages you quoted. What Christ wanted people (Pharisees particularly) to understand is that just because you don't do the action of murder, adultery, etc...doesn't mean your thoughts are not sinful in themselves and that God judges our thoughts (intents of the heart) as well as our actions.

So, can you describe to me, in this passage, or elsewhere, where it says specifically this one (action) is worse than the other (thought)?

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc.

The Bible teaches all sins whether in thought or deed lead to the same penalty and no sin is too small, neither is any sin too large for God to forgive through Christ.

Yes.

However, this does not in any way mean all sins are equal in severity, and I don't think that's what Jesus meant in the verses you posted.

I did not claim all sins are equal in severity, just the instance I notated and documented.

Furthermore, the text I posted should be clear in refuting that, although I'm sure there are more.

Yes, you proofed there was a difference in severity of sin; you failed to proof against my specific instances. Have you got such a monster? The Bible says a man who hates his brother is a murderer. Period. A man who lusts is an adulterer, though in his heart, which is a different function than classic adultery according to Levitical Law, for which there is a prescribed action against the participants-- to God, because he knows your heart, however, both are adultery in His eyes and to His Judgment.

[david_ian]

David_Ian wrote:

Even in Christ's time there was a disparaging difference between what was Sin to hate and when Grace should apply. I'm not of a mind that there is such a current collapse of external morals and declare society as downfallen. Especially, if we are attempting to use the actions of the unSaved as a litmus for whether or not Sin has fundamentally changed in the minds of the Redeemed.

I'm amazed David that anyone today can even question if there is a decline in external morals or if society is downfallen.

It probably depends how you define "external morals", and what constitutes a "downfall" of society.
As far as "external morals" goes, that we can now see the ankles of women is undoubted; that we regularly beat our wives or our brother or the downtrodden, I'm thinking we're doing better in that light. But if "external morals" is on the decline across the board, shouldn't we be beating our wives more frequently than in the "good ol' moral days"? Much depends upon what you pay attention to as a "sign of the times" concerning external morals or society's downfall.

Homosexuality is at levels similar to Sodom, same sex marriages are not only becoming legal but also common place and adoption into these relationships, which within themselves are 100% incapable of reproduction, is also now common place. Obesity is now the norm (you mentioned gluttony as a sin), leaders all over the world lie to get elected and break promises once they are. And, of course, these are only natural reflections of a very downfallen spiritual condition.

Adultery and homosexuality are used in the Scripture to teach us about false gods and about spiritual idolatry. And this in turn brings us to a very important point; the condition of the World isn't even the point, it's always been and always will be in sin. It's the attitude of the redeemed that is important.

Bingo.

John 12:46-48 tells us that even Jesus isn't too surprised by the state of the World and declares it is already judged by the Word He has spoken (which also means by the Word He has lived; for the Hebrew mindset it is the way you live that proves what comes out of your mouth, which is true in any mindset). It is not the downfallen world that is a sign of the end, it is the apathy of the church towards the sin of the World.

I would argue that it is the apathy of the Church to apply Grace to the World. We are not to be the world's Judge and Jury, that's not our place; but rather bring God's Grace, Mercy to the World, that is, bring the Doctor to the Sick.

The church today is afraid to speak out against homosexuality, abortion, same sex marriage, adoption issues, genetic science and many, many more issues that are offensive to God. Not only afraid but gagged by law; and thereby obeying man instead of God.

Hopefully, the Church is understanding that it should stop trying to tell non-Christians to behave like Christians, and rather spend more time showing them who Christ is through their actions, in order for them to experience Christ.

Which leads to a fulfillment of Amos 8:11; there is a famine of the Word in todays society. Now please, before you say that the Word is preached more today than it ever has been, realize that here the Word is paralleled with food. Malnutrition does not have to be because of a lack of food, it is actually because of a lack of nutritional food. The Word may be preached today, but it isn't preached in its full truth and most are in a state of spiritual malnutrition. That is why homosexuals have the pulpits, are married "in the sight" of God in the churches and many, many other issues run rife in our churches..

My personal opinion with the malnutrition is that it stems from Christians attempting to make converts instead of disciples. We give them the True food, they discard their other means of sustinance, and then we neglect to instruct them on how to feed themselves.

david_ian wrote:
Paula, you seem to be proofing that one sin is greater than another, which is not the same as the sin of the heart vs. same sin of action being greater.

1John 5:16 makes it clear that there is a sin that leads to death and a sin which does not. I"ll be honest and admit to a lack of revelation on the issue; I do not know which sin is which and don't want to be, nor can be, the one who decides which is which. But I do know that there is death just around the corner for literally millions of the World's population. That is why our first aim and task in this world should be the great commission; Matt 28:18ff. But even the great commission is often part of that falling away from the "TRUTH" of the Word.

The commission does not end at bringing people into a relationship with their Saviour. It goes on into baptism (which for brevity I wont explain but declare that is is far more than just a dunk in water; it is a total change in character and behavior) and "teaching to obey"; Matt 28:19-20.

We have a responsibility to preach the Word, in love and acceptance, so that people will be drawn into relationship with their Father and Creator. But we also have a responsibility to teach the truth of what that Word expects of us and the importance of obedience to that Word. We are blind to that truth if we then start to make a million excuses for sins, in action or thought, without teaching honest confrontation of self and repentance; which also means a change of life's direction and a change in the choices we make.

This addresses a lot of what I was saying earlier about discipling.

Blessings, Graham.

Blessings to you, too, Graham.