Hating the Devil

[beaedwards]

I began reading this thread last night and it was on my mind in prayer and reflection this morning so I came back to post my simple answer that we are to hate what (who) God hates. Since satan is the adversary and accuser, the absolute epitome of all that is evil and in constant opposition to what is righteous good and true- yes we are to hate him.
However as I read through some of the new responses I have this desire to do a more complete study of much of what you have written.
WOW you are all sharp as two edged swords and I feel my response is much to simple.
I'm studying theology at Moody and don't have an iota of your knowledge.
Thank you all for prompting me to dig deeper!
I'll be back if I can muster up something intelligent to add to this thread.
Bea

[Come forth]

Actually, I love your answer Bea; mainly because we have the calling from Jesus Himself to have faith as a little child. If we cannot get it 100% right with 100% understanding, and none of us can, then your answer is by far the best option of choice.

No matter how much we may like to discuss these issues, I will still teach my grandchildren in the simplest ways possible to develop at least a 'very serious dislike' for things like the effects of drug addiction, sexual promiscuity, alcoholism, abuse, etc. etc..

At all times the focus that my wife and I try to bring into our family is the love of Jesus and the enormity of His forgiveness. But without the balance of negativity towards sin you are left with lawlessness being covered by a false understanding of grace. A road that mainstream church is dangerously traveling down; with the result that the difference between true followers of Christ and people in the street shrinks every day.

What was once called sin is now acceptable behavior, even in the pulpit. And it is going to increase because we no longer hate sin. We no longer even understand 'sin' and what it is; the eternal effect is even denied these days.

I guess I've gone on a different tangent with this issue; but could the failure to 'hate' sin be a major contributer to societies downfall? Do we see society in decline as we become more permissive of so many aspects of sexuality, alcohol, what is 'smoked', who can and cannot marry, who can and cannot adopt children, abortion and so many hot topics? Many would call these issues progressive, and my intention isn't to start a argument or to declare myself on one side or the other. But there are two very powerful sides to this argument and both have great merit. Can we deny that hate of these things has caused so many problems for the people who are involved? But can we also deny that hatred for the things themselves is almost a biblical mandate?

But another aspect of the argument comes forth here, and an aspect that also has merits on both sides with a special hint towards the 'personal' hate aspect.

When Steve spoke about 'personal' hatred, I don't believe he meant it quite the way I took it and I want to apologize to him for taking it this way. I am sure, reading his character in the way he writes, that he was talking about 'personal' hatred as in a hatred that I own and is mine; my personal hatred. Whereas I am talking about hatred towards other 'persons'. Steve is right in his claim that we 'personally' should hate sin; but we definitely should not hate the 'persons' who are trapped in it.

Blessings, Graham.

[beaedwards]

Just wanted to say thank you Graham and I always appreciate the thoughtfulness with which you answer posts.
I read many more posts than I comment upon, quite frankly because some simply don't seem like any of my business.
You have commented on many issues that are hot topics and you do so with a peppered grace that I find refreshing
I have had a couple of seriously full days.... who doesn't right? Therefore haven't studied further into the various responses posted in this topic as of yet, but I'll be on it over the next couple days.
One last thing before I run off to another task-When I saw your apology to Steve it caused me to reflect upon the beauty of the written word and how once we read our own thoughts a little time later we often see with a different perspective or 'A New pair of Glasses'. Another beautiful thing about word processors and internet communication, don't you think?
Grace, peace, and joy abounding to you and your family,
Bea

[david_ian]

At all times the focus that my wife and I try to bring into our family is the love of Jesus and the enormity of His forgiveness. But without the balance of negativity towards sin you are left with lawlessness being covered by a false understanding of grace. A road that mainstream church is dangerously traveling down; with the result that the difference between true followers of Christ and people in the street shrinks every day.

What was once called sin is now acceptable behavior, even in the pulpit. And it is going to increase because we no longer hate sin. We no longer even understand 'sin' and what it is; the eternal effect is even denied these days.

I guess I've gone on a different tangent with this issue; but could the failure to 'hate' sin be a major contributer to societies downfall? Do we see society in decline as we become more permissive of so many aspects of sexuality, alcohol, what is 'smoked', who can and cannot marry, who can and cannot adopt children, abortion and so many hot topics? Many would call these issues progressive, and my intention isn't to start a argument or to declare myself on one side or the other. But there are two very powerful sides to this argument and both have great merit. Can we deny that hate of these things has caused so many problems for the people who are involved? But can we also deny that hatred for the things themselves is almost a biblical mandate?

Even in Christ's time there was a disparaging difference between what was Sin to hate and when Grace should apply. I'm not of a mind that there is such a current collapse of external morals and declare society as downfallen. Especially, if we are attempting to use the actions of the unSaved as a litmus for whether or not Sin has fundamentally changed in the minds of the Redeemed. Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

And while we're counting sins as a symptom, let's not also forget the less scandalous sins, such as pride, envy, wrath, greed, sloth, hate for your brother, which may run rampant even through a church culture but if kept at bay with a veneer of proper church etiquette, might go seemingly invisible, or at least less of indicator of the collapse of society as much as who marries whom.

Hating Sin really isn't the solution. A passionate Love for God and your neighbor will bring all that works against that Love to Light and it will become evidence in itself. We don't hate Sin except that it impedes God's Perfect Love. To me, it's not that we are out of balance because we don't abhore Sin enough and apply a milquetoast grace, but rather that we cheapen our living and applying God's Grace by attempting to replace it with an undue attention to Sin. Kind of like cursing the darkness rather than lighting a candle.

David_Ian

[jo555]

We know that Jesus is the 'Lamb of God', and that the lambs were sacrificed for thousands of years to teach us about the final sacrifice of sacrifices; and yet Jesus was not an actual lamb. The lamb was simply symbolic. Jesus taught most of His lessons through the use of symbolism; parables about seeds, farm managers, wedding feasts, loan sharks and an unending list of examples.

My questions did not pose answers because I feel that any one answer MAY be incomplete and misleading. Is it possible that the personification of Satan, as a person who will face his final battle and judgment, is also a method of God teaching us about our inner battle? Does one need to negate the other? And, if God knows all things and knows the timing of all things, why did He create Satan in the first place?

Do we believe that He created us for relationship with Him? Is it possible that He created the angels, knowing that many would fall, because He knew that man, all of whom would fall, needed lessons on how to fight the fight and read the signposts pointing to home?

Interestingly the first reference to this foe of foes is that of a serpent. In the Strong's lexicon (H5175) that word means a whisperer, and in the Brown Driver Briggs lexicon it also means an 'image' of a serpent. Dig a little further and the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible teaches us that the word also relates to learning, experience and observation.

Is it not true that what we learn, through what we experience and observe, forms our inner man? And is not this inner man, when he forms inner false thoughts and conclusions, one of our greatest roadblocks to a life of faith? Do we not whisper arguments to ourselves all the time? Modern psychology has made millions of dollars out of teaching people about 'self-talk' and controlling the voice within your own head. Sports motivators and teachers use that same 'talking to self' as a method of improving golf swing or hitting a home run. Was not the serpents first trick to cause a whispering in the mind that created questions to be pondered? "Did God really say?" - "Is that what will really happen?"

There is no doubt in my mind that I am often my own worse enemy. My mouth often moves far faster than my brain has the ability to shut it. My emotions, particularly those of hurt or rejection, often overtake the ability to consider or care for the effect of my behavior or words on others. So, in answer to all of these questions, let me put forward another few questions.

Is it possible that, by looking at Satan and all that is taught about him, we can see a picture of the struggle within each and every one of us? Can we see a picture of what will become of us if we allow this inner whispering to lead us down the wrong path? Is it not more important to recognize the work of the enemy within ourselves rather than to go around blaming something 'out there'?

And isn't all of this, as mentioned before, still possible if there is an actual Satan, with his band of not so merry men, weaving his own sort of trickery on all who will allow him to plant the seed?

But remember, that seed still needed to be planted. If you become more like Christ every day, because you receive His seed Word, who do you become like if you receive the other seed?

Blessings, Graham.

Reminds me of a dream I had that was quite intense.

It ended with me hearing an evil voice telling this guy that was laying in a bed to watch dirty movies. The thing was, the evil voice wasn't shouting it. It was whispering, and it was definitely something coming from outside the guy . . . it was subtle enough where I knew the guy thought it was coming from within him, and he listened and did it. Then the evil voice laughs this evil laugh because it knew it fooled him into thinking the thoughts were his own.
End of dream.

On hating satan, I've wondered myself that before. I also believe that he being the epidemy of evil it may be what is called for, but since I do not know for sure that is what we should do, I tend to not look to go there on my own. So, don't know and don't look to go there on my own.

We should hate all that he stands for.

I used to wonder why the devil hated us so much. The bible says he’s out to kill, steal, and destroy us . . . and goes about seeking opportunities to do that. It was challenging for me to understand how any being could be so evil. So I have this other dream and in the dream I was in a bookstore where I met this young lady that had been involved in wicca. I was walking towards the front when I saw her walk in, then two women came in after her and stood beside her. I was in the process of saying hi when I then picked up that there was an evil spirit in her that really wanted to hurt me. Not only hurt me, but it would get intense pleasure out of it. I also sensed the two other women beside her (one to her left, and the other standing on her right) also had evil spirits, but I knew the one in her was the stronger, or more evil one. They all wanted to harm me. I then was like, ‘oh’ . . .

When I woke up I was like, “Ok God, I see what you are saying, but I still don’t get it.” Well, I didn’t hear a voice, but it was like I felt the Lord was saying, “And you will never know that type of evil, just know it is so.”

Overall from what I know of scriptures and what the Lord has revealed to me I know that there is no light in the devil and his horde. As Jesus said, he cannot even tell the truth for there is no light in him. When he does evil it is his nature, darkness and evil. So, in that way I can have a limited understanding, but I will never know that type / measure of evil in a personal way for as a child of God I will always be protected of that.

Even fallen man isn’t totally depraved, or totally in the dark for the scriptures say we have the light of Jesus shining on the world, and there is the law as a shadow of his Light. Yet we all need revelation, which to me is the bright light of Father’s Heart shining in our heart’s by way of the Holy Spirit and through Jesus Christ.

Well, God uses dreams and visions in my life to teach me too, as it lines up with his Word and Heart of course.

[jo555]

At all times the focus that my wife and I try to bring into our family is the love of Jesus and the enormity of His forgiveness. But without the balance of negativity towards sin you are left with lawlessness being covered by a false understanding of grace. A road that mainstream church is dangerously traveling down; with the result that the difference between true followers of Christ and people in the street shrinks every day.

What was once called sin is now acceptable behavior, even in the pulpit. And it is going to increase because we no longer hate sin. We no longer even understand 'sin' and what it is; the eternal effect is even denied these days.

I guess I've gone on a different tangent with this issue; but could the failure to 'hate' sin be a major contributer to societies downfall? Do we see society in decline as we become more permissive of so many aspects of sexuality, alcohol, what is 'smoked', who can and cannot marry, who can and cannot adopt children, abortion and so many hot topics? Many would call these issues progressive, and my intention isn't to start a argument or to declare myself on one side or the other. But there are two very powerful sides to this argument and both have great merit. Can we deny that hate of these things has caused so many problems for the people who are involved? But can we also deny that hatred for the things themselves is almost a biblical mandate?

Even in Christ's time there was a disparaging difference between what was Sin to hate and when Grace should apply. I'm not of a mind that there is such a current collapse of external morals and declare society as downfallen. Especially, if we are attempting to use the actions of the unSaved as a litmus for whether or not Sin has fundamentally changed in the minds of the Redeemed. Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

And while we're counting sins as a symptom, let's not also forget the less scandalous sins, such as pride, envy, wrath, greed, sloth, hate for your brother, which may run rampant even through a church culture but if kept at bay with a veneer of proper church etiquette, might go seemingly invisible, or at least less of indicator of the collapse of society as much as who marries whom.

Hating Sin really isn't the solution. A passionate Love for God and your neighbor will bring all that works against that Love to Light and it will become evidence in itself. We don't hate Sin except that it impedes God's Perfect Love. To me, it's not that we are out of balance because we don't abhore Sin enough and apply a milquetoast grace, but rather that we cheapen our living and applying God's Grace by attempting to replace it with an undue attention to Sin. Kind of like cursing the darkness rather than lighting a candle.

David_Ian

I see it as going hand-in-hand. Sort of like how our journey into redemption began with the law, but doesn't stop there. Sort of like how an alcoholic needs to really start hating alcohol and want to seek change.

I also believe hate and love often start with us . . . as babies are self-absorbed. It isn't necessarily right or wrong (can be, but not necessarily), but where we are at. As we grow, our hatred and love matures and moves beyond ourselves.

Basically, a progressive journey into the full stature of Christ.

[Soren2007]

satan=otherness
Peter is rebuked as a satan for needing God in a certain way (invincible, can't be killed).

[beaedwards]

Just curious if you would expand on this thought as to how it applies to our necessity also...
I'm still searching scripture and praying for revelation to develop a thought on this subject.

[Soren2007]

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

I have a really hard time with this--seems that while the mental state is sinful, it doesn't make it as sinful. Taking a view that any amount of fallenness=less than godliness and tainting one radically is one thing, but to say that God doesn't differentiate levels of sinfulness just doesn't seem to come next.

[Soren2007]

Just curious if you would expand on this thought as to how it applies to our necessity also...
I'm still searching scripture and praying for revelation to develop a thought on this subject.

Necessity? It is necessary to have otherness if there is going to be somethingness, even if that otherness is nothingness.

[beaedwards]

Excuse me but HUH? I'm really confused now.

[Paula22466]

Also, to God's mind, murder in the mind is just as abhorrent as its action; lust from the heart is equivalent to actual adultry, etc. So even if statistics rise to more murders and adultry, it is no solid indicator that Sin is on the rise; just our awareness of quantifiable sin.

I have a really hard time with this--seems that while the mental state is sinful, it doesn't make it as sinful. Taking a view that any amount of fallenness=less than godliness and tainting one radically is one thing, but to say that God doesn't differentiate levels of sinfulness just doesn't seem to come next.

Agree with Soren (SOREN!) ...
Jesus’ words to Pilate: “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin" (John 19:11).

Jesus asked, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?" Matt 7:3-4

[Paula22466]

satan=otherness
Peter is rebuked as a satan for needing God in a certain way (invincible, can't be killed).

Disagree with Soren (SOREN!) Peter is rebuked as Satan's spokesman for focusing on what He wanted more than God's way. Maybe I'm splitting hairs. Anyway, it's good to see you!

[Soren2007]

satan=otherness
Peter is rebuked as a satan for needing God in a certain way (invincible, can't be killed).

Disagree with Soren (SOREN!) Peter is rebuked as Satan's spokesman for focusing on what He wanted more than God's way. Maybe I'm splitting hairs. Anyway, it's good to see you!

Hi there.
I think it is the strongeset rebuke of the gospels, other than possibly "I never knew you." I don't think it was done simply because Peter wanted different things than what Jesus was doing (the what and how), but more because he was offended the GodMan would be party to death (the who).

I see your point also. Maybe it is splitting hairs a bit. Just think the Peter/Jesus relationship is very crucial in regards to understanding offense vs doubt.

[Soren2007]

Excuse me but HUH? I'm really confused now.

tends to happen from time to time with me.