To view this notification widget you need to have JavaScript enabled. This notification widget was easily created with NotifySnack.
Home Tour About Read What's New Help Forums Join Login
My Account
Shop
Save
Support
E
Book
Store
Learn
About
Jesus
  




The HOME for Christian writers!
The Home for Christian Writers!

Forums

This area is only a small portion of FaithWriters. The main site can be joined HERE.
Shop & Save to SUPPORT FaithWriters.
Upgrade to SUPPORT FaithWriters.

Do Animals Go to Heaven?

For those who like to discuss and debate theology. This is a forum for people who enjoy strong and lively debate with people who may not be likeminded. Participants are requested to always treat other opinions with respect.

Moderators: mikeedwards, cori67, RedBaron

User avatar
Mattguddat
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 6:57 am

Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Mattguddat » Wed May 07, 2014 6:04 pm

I recently posted a blog on animals going to heaven. I was surprised at the uncertainty and split opinions out there. I, for one, always though they did.

Typically those with a protestant background believe they don't and people with a catholic background believe they do.

I would love to hear any points of view on this subject and debate it. Animals, after all, are a large part of our world and life. We form many deep bonds with our pets.

According to the bible animals have RUACH (spirit breath of God).

What do you think?
Mattguddat.com Blog, Reviews and Resources

User avatar
glorybee
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6103
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby glorybee » Wed May 07, 2014 6:57 pm

Mattguddat wrote:
According to the bible animals have RUACH (spirit breath of God).



What is your biblical reference for that?
Jan Ackerson

User avatar
Come forth
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Innisfail, North Qld, Australia

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Come forth » Wed May 07, 2014 7:04 pm

Ultimately, and of course there are people who will argue this, we are going back to a life that existed before the fall. Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden -- and we are going back into the garden to walk in intimacy with God. The full circle of life, as it was in the beginning, there is nothing new under the sun, as it was so shall it be -- these things are distorted by New Age thinking but still contain Truth.

Animals exist in the garden. The lion will lie down with the lamb. A child shall lead a lion around. Of course, these things have much deeper symbolic meanings, but their natural truth still remains.

Blessings, Graham.
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
http://www.shekinahcloud.com/page/page/8464330.htm

User avatar
Mattguddat
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Mattguddat » Wed May 07, 2014 9:50 pm

Glorybee...

Haha, excuse my lack of referencing. I was in a rush at work and threw that in as a conversation hook. Looks like it worked :wink:

You will find that animals have the breath of RUACH in them (thus giving them a soul Genesis 1:20 the word life is NEPHESH/soul) in Ecclesiastes 3.21. Genesis 6.17 also gives a generic term for flesh, meaning more than mankind had the breath of life.

RUACH is not OUR spirit. RUACH is the breath of God that creates life with, all living things with a soul (NEPHESH) are only in that state because God breathed/imparted RUACH. When God made man he breathed RUACH so we became NEPHESH (soul).
Mattguddat.com Blog, Reviews and Resources

User avatar
glorybee
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6103
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby glorybee » Wed May 07, 2014 10:06 pm

Mattguddat wrote:Glorybee...

Haha, excuse my lack of referencing. I was in a rush at work and threw that in as a conversation hook. Looks like it worked :wink:

You will find that animals have the breath of RUACH in them (thus giving them a soul Genesis 1:20 the word life is NEPHESH/soul) in Ecclesiastes 3.21. Genesis 6.17 also gives a generic term for flesh, meaning more than mankind had the breath of life.

RUACH is not OUR spirit. RUACH is the breath of God that creates life with, all living things with a soul (NEPHESH) are only in that state because God breathed/imparted RUACH. When God made man he breathed RUACH so we became NEPHESH (soul).


I'm no biblical scholar, but it seems to me that you're reading a lot into those verses that's not there.

In my opinion--and I admit that I'm not a theologian--if animals go to heaven, it's because Jesus died to save them from their sins. Since I see nothing in the gospels that states that, I don't believe that animals will be there. In fact, the Incarnation of Jesus--him taking on human flesh--tells me that he did that exclusively for humans. God did not take on the flesh of a dog or a cat.

I love animals, but when people attribute spirit or soul to animals, it seems to me that people are belittling themselves. It is WE who are God's children, and Jesus's brothers and sisters. And if we say that our beloved animals have spirit, it seems to me that we have to apply that to all animals. Will there be scorpions in heaven, too? Centipedes? Tapeworms?
Jan Ackerson

User avatar
Mattguddat
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Mattguddat » Thu May 08, 2014 1:46 am

I'm no biblical scholar, but it seems to me that you're reading a lot into those verses that's not there.

In my opinion--and I admit that I'm not a theologian--if animals go to heaven, it's because Jesus died to save them from their sins. Since I see nothing in the gospels that states that, I don't believe that animals will be there. In fact, the Incarnation of Jesus--him taking on human flesh--tells me that he did that exclusively for humans. God did not take on the flesh of a dog or a cat.

I love animals, but when people attribute spirit or soul to animals, it seems to me that people are belittling themselves. It is WE who are God's children, and Jesus's brothers and sisters. And if we say that our beloved animals have spirit, it seems to me that we have to apply that to all animals. Will there be scorpions in heaven, too? Centipedes? Tapeworms?


I see where your coming from, but it clearly states animals do have a soul, to which most theologians agree:

“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures [soul/nephesh], and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” God created the great sea monsters and every living creature [soul/nephesh]that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1:20–21)

“Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures [soul/nephesh] after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.” (Genesis 1:24)

“and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life [soul/nephesh], I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.” (Genesis 1:30)

“Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; and with every living creature [soul/nephesh] that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.” (Genesis 9:9–10)

Thanks for your response. :D Please not that the word for soul is used specifically for the human soul too, so we have to assume that the soul/nephesh is indeed a soul of similar attributes in both humans and animals.

I see that you debate that they do not get into heaven with little evidence (no digs), this is because many people default that it is a given. Animals don't go to heaven. What I am trying to get at here is what theological evidence people have on either side of the fence. It is not a given for everyone. Many other people default that animals do go to heaven.

I also note that the Bible deals little with the subject, in which one can only assume that this is due to animals not being the theme of the Bible. Mankind is. We are made in the image of God. The Bible is in essence for mankind - not animals.

I also totally believe that insects will exist in heaven. They all serve on earth as a part of Gods creation. :D
Mattguddat.com Blog, Reviews and Resources

User avatar
glorybee
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6103
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby glorybee » Thu May 08, 2014 2:10 am

Mattguddat wrote:
I'm no biblical scholar, but it seems to me that you're reading a lot into those verses that's not there.

In my opinion--and I admit that I'm not a theologian--if animals go to heaven, it's because Jesus died to save them from their sins. Since I see nothing in the gospels that states that, I don't believe that animals will be there. In fact, the Incarnation of Jesus--him taking on human flesh--tells me that he did that exclusively for humans. God did not take on the flesh of a dog or a cat.

I love animals, but when people attribute spirit or soul to animals, it seems to me that people are belittling themselves. It is WE who are God's children, and Jesus's brothers and sisters. And if we say that our beloved animals have spirit, it seems to me that we have to apply that to all animals. Will there be scorpions in heaven, too? Centipedes? Tapeworms?


I see where your coming from, but it clearly states animals do have a soul, to which most theologians agree:

“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures [soul/nephesh], and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” God created the great sea monsters and every living creature [soul/nephesh]that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1:20–21)

“Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures [soul/nephesh] after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.” (Genesis 1:24)

“and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life [soul/nephesh], I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.” (Genesis 1:30)

“Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; and with every living creature [soul/nephesh] that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.” (Genesis 9:9–10)

Thanks for your response. :D Please not that the word for soul is used specifically for the human soul too, so we have to assume that the soul/nephesh is indeed a soul of similar attributes in both humans and animals.

I see that you debate that they do not get into heaven with little evidence (no digs), this is because many people default that it is a given. Animals don't go to heaven. What I am trying to get at here is what theological evidence people have on either side of the fence. It is not a given for everyone. Many other people default that animals do go to heaven.

I also note that the Bible deals little with the subject, in which one can only assume that this is due to animals not being the theme of the Bible. Mankind is. We are made in the image of God. The Bible is in essence for mankind - not animals.

I also totally believe that insects will exist in heaven. They all serve on earth as a part of Gods creation. :D


You say that "most theologians agree" that animals have a soul. May I have a citation for that, please?

And again, you seem to be inserting "soul/nephesh" into several verses.

The fact that many people default to animals going to heaven doesn't make it so.

You didn't address my question of saving grace and incarnation. We go to heaven because the blood of Jesus has bought our salvation. Is there biblical evidence that even one drop of Jesus' precious blood was shed for a tapeworm?

To me--again, not a theologian--the thought of animals in heaven is on a par with people who think of heaven as a place where all of our earthly desires and fantasies will be met--a Hollywood view of heaven as the great fishing hole in the sky, or the place where we can eat everything we want without gaining weight, or any number of other descriptions of heaven as a sort of idealized earth. We've all heard them, and we've all joked about them. "Oh, grandma's up in her favorite rocker, knitting socks for grandpa."

When the fact is, heaven is entirely beyond our understanding--the habitation of the most high and holy God, not a place where we'll be tossing tennis balls to Fido.
Jan Ackerson

User avatar
glorybee
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6103
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby glorybee » Thu May 08, 2014 2:20 am

Mattguddat wrote:
I also note that the Bible deals little with the subject, in which one can only assume that this is due to animals not being the theme of the Bible. Mankind is. We are made in the image of God. The Bible is in essence for mankind - not animals.



On this we agree--the Bible is for mankind, not animals.

And so is Jesus.
Jan Ackerson

User avatar
Mattguddat
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
Pencil 1 (1-49 Posts)
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Mattguddat » Thu May 08, 2014 2:54 am

Glorybee...

I inserted Soul/Nephesh because Nephesh is the Hebrew word used in the text at that point, translating as living or in other places in the OT soul. I do not have citation. Why not find me a few credited theologians who say animals have no soul?

Insects did not sin and therefore need no redemption. Man did. :cry:

And who's to say the Most High despises tossing balls to Fido? Is that an unholy practice? Maybe. Obviously we have a differing image of the nature and character of God :idea:
Mattguddat.com Blog, Reviews and Resources

User avatar
Colswann1
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 1060
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Colswann1 » Thu May 08, 2014 6:23 am

Well we know there are horses in heaven - Jesus comes to do battle with antichrist on a dazzling white steed. Lions and eagles get a mention too. So there are creatures there, whether they have been drafted from below is another matter.
Colin Swann

Jesus’ love is constant and never wavers.

User avatar
Come forth
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Innisfail, North Qld, Australia

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Come forth » Thu May 08, 2014 10:19 am

Well said, Colin. That is the point I too was making. Did Jesus die for their sins? I agree 100% with Jan and think that is clearly not possible. But it is obvious that animals are a part of eternity.

Blessings, Graham.
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
http://www.shekinahcloud.com/page/page/8464330.htm

User avatar
tomoral
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:08 pm

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby tomoral » Thu May 08, 2014 5:57 pm

Well, all I can say that one has only to look into the eyes of their beloved pet to know that they have a soul. They have been given the capacity to love and protect. And God created animals of many kinds to go with Noah on his ark, so why wouldn't his creations go to heaven? God gave the animals their natural instincts on how to survive, so are they not intelligent beings? Why wouldn't their souls be considered for heaven?

I would think they would.
God Bless the beasts and the children
Give them shelter from the storms.
Children are our tomorrow
Keep them daily from the sorrow
Of the beasts in life

http://www.faithwriters.com/websites/my ... p?id=57394

User avatar
swfdoc1
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:31 pm

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby swfdoc1 » Thu May 08, 2014 6:01 pm

Interesting discussion. Sorry to interact with you the first time, Matt, with a “book,” but you’ve raised a complex issue. I think your position makes three main mistakes. (I also hope I'm not being too blunt for a first time interaction.) First, you are ignoring the polysemy of the word nephesh; second, you think your data proves more than it does; and third you seem to want yourself and others to include logically fallacious arguments.

As for polysemy (multiple meanings of a single word), let me make an (imperfect) analogy. The word “blues” can mean 1) various shades of the color blue or 2) a sense of sadness or 3) a genre of music. Now let’s say I write a story with these lines:

“I arrive at the honky tonk at just that sunset time of day when the oranges, yellows, and pinks, are crowding out the blues, while being overtaken themselves by the grays of twilight. I begin surveying the scene even as my eyes adjust to the interior dimness. The masks of boredom, comradery, or jocularity cover the real emotions of most of the all-day drinkers. But then I spot the woman I am looking for. In a booth by herself, she wears no mask to cover her blues. Her eyes don’t see the other patrons. Her eyes don’t hear the rock, blues, and country numbers the bored house band is mechanically playing.”

Now let’s say I’m trying to help a person who doesn’t know English very well to understand the story better. It would be completely INVALID to do this:

“I arrive at the honky tonk at just that sunset time of day when the oranges, yellows, and pinks, are crowding out the blues [various shades of the color blue], while being overtaken themselves by the grays of twilight. I begin surveying the scene even as my eyes adjust to the interior dimness. The masks of boredom, comradery, or jocularity cover the real emotions of most of the all-day drinkers. But then I spot the woman I am looking for. In a booth by herself, she wears no mask to cover her blues [various shades of the color blue]. Her eyes don’t see the other patrons. Her eyes don’t hear the rock, blues [various shades of the color blue], and country numbers the bored house band is mechanically playing.”

Ironically, you recognize the polysemy of nephesh in some of your comments (stating what else nephesh can sometimes mean besides “soul”). But in most places & especially when you insert “[soul/nephesh]” into the scriptures, you ignore the polysemy. Taking just one example, Gen. 1:20-21, nephesh doesn’t mean “souls” it means “living creatures” just as the English translation indicates.

Now I know that some people who participate the theology forum have studied the biblical languages and others haven’t. And I know that different folks (in both categories) have access to different tools to help with these sorts of issues. But I can direct everyone to a very helpful tool we can all use together. First go to http://www.blueletterbible.org . Then in the search box in the upper left corner, enter Gen. 2:7. Click on the “tools” button to the left of the verse. (It should default to the “Interlinear” tab; if not, choose that.) To the right of the word “soul,” click on the hyperlink for the Strong’s number. The first thing you will see is/are the polysemy/many meanings of nephesh. When you scroll down, you will next see the translation count for the KJV. It is clear that nephesh simply does NOT always mean soul. In addition to the individual translations listed with individual counts, notice that the last item indicates that nephesh is also translated in 47 miscellaneous ways. That is a broad polysemy indeed. Next, for those who have some proficiency with biblical Hebrew, you’ll see the Gesenius entry for nephesh (make sure to click on the “Rest of the Entry” link). Finally, you will see the first of 14 pages of all the occurrences of nephesh. Again, it’s obvious that nephesh has a VERY broad polysemy and does NOT always mean soul.

By the way, the same problem exists with your use of the word “ruach,” which can mean the Spirit of God, the breath of God, the spirit of man, or the spirit of animals, among MANY meanings.

Plus, you are leaving out what, if any, implications can be drawn from the use of neshamah instead of ruach in places to mean “breath of life.”

As for what your data proves, it proves that anything that is alive is alive because God gave it life. But when God makes something alive what does it become? It becomes a nephesh. That’s all it proves. But we have already seen that a nephesh can be a soul (as we think of that in terms of people) OR a living creature. Even if we wanted to ignore that polysemy—which we shouldn’t—and say that animals are souls (some translations use “soul” for animals in some passages; almost certainly a mis-translation), that would not prove there are not different KINDS of souls, for example those with immortal spirits and those without immortal spirits. And it ignores several important issues.

First what is a soul? I agree with you that a soul (when talking about man) is body + spirit. But for an animal, is spirit the same as for man? Or is spirit better seen as something like “life force”? As pointed our above the Hebrew dictionaries distinguish between the meanings “spirit of man” and “spirit of animals.”

But complications arise because the use of ruach and nephesh are not completely mutually exclusive. That leads to many tangents that I won’t address. However, the GENERAL picture seems to be that Christians who die and are with the Lord in heaven are SPIRITS. They/we won’t be SOULS again until they/we get our resurrection bodies (since soul = spirit + body). But then we won’t be in heaven. Depending on your eschatology, we might spend some time on the old earth with our resurrection bodies, but most importantly, we will spend eternity on the NEW EARTH.

So, to make the case that there are animals in heaven, you need to make the case that they have immortal spirits. And in the case of being re-united with our pets in heaven, you would need to make the case that we as human spirits would recognize individual animal spirits. Or if by heaven you really mean “heaven now and the new earth later,” you would (for the latter part) also need to make the case that animals have resurrection bodies.

I don’t see any of that in Scripture or in your argument. Further, this seems to me to render the whole nephesh/soul argument (in the creation context) irrelevant.

Now I know that the Fall impacted all of creation, not just man. Lots of Scriptures tell us that. We know that all of creation is dis-ordered. BUT how much of the original order are we really told about? MAN was created not to die, but can you think of a scripture that says that animals were not created to die? I can’t and your data doesn’t support that assumption.

As for logical fallacies, your suggestion that Jan name some theologians who support her position is nothing more than argumentum ad verecundiam on your part and an invitation to her to engage in the separate but related fallacy of argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate). Which, by the way, you also committed when you said most theologians agree that animals have souls. (And not that it matters, but I’m not sure that’s true anyway.) Further, the implication (perhaps unintentional or perhaps me mis-reading you) is that Jan has not made a theological argument. But she has. Her argument is not exegetical, that is, she has not deeply opened any one text. And her argument may not be airtight. But it is certainly a theological argument, made at the level of systematic theology.

Now for some things not implicated by your comments. Without doing any on-the-spot research, I can think of 2 scriptures that likely teach that animals do NOT have immortal spirits (and therefore cannot be/have/become immortal souls). However, I admit that both are less than clear, propositional statements.

Interestingly, you mentioned one of the keys passages: Ecc. 3:21. We know that in Eccl., the writer is discussing the fact that everything is vain. In many passages, he is writing as if he were a spiritually unenlightened man, and thus, many of the things he says should be taken to stand for the exact opposite proposition. Such a passage is Eccl. 3:18-20, where the Preacher says there is no difference between animals and man. However, in vs. 21 he explains there is a difference: at death, our spirits “go upwards,” while the spirits of the animals “go down to the earth.” (Lots of rabbits/tangents there, too, but I’m sticking to this point). BTW, some translations phrase v. 21 as a question, i.e., asking whether it is true that there is a difference. Under this translation, v. 21 is a continuation of the part that should be understood as standing for the exact opposition—the spiritually enlightened person knows the difference.

The second example is a combination of 2 passages, Job 1:1-3 and Job 42:12-13. The first passage shows what Job had before his affliction. Now look at 42:12-13 to see what God blessed Job with at the end. In order to bless Job, God gave him exactly double the amount of everything he had before EXCEPT CHILDREN. God didn’t have to double the number of children because the children who died still existed (i.e., their spirits exisited), while the animals that died didn’t.

Like I said, not propositional truths, but certainly pointing in the direction I stated.

I guess I’ll quickly address what Graham and Colin have mentioned. First, I agree with Graham that things are—in some sense—going to take us “back to the garden.” I think that’s the whole point of the new earth. Therefore, I think it highly likely that there will be animals on the new earth. I also think it likely that those animals will be immortal if animals were immortal originally (which I am skeptical of) and that they will be mortal if they were originally mortal. However, I also believe this cannot be asserted definitely.

However, I don’t think this tells us anything about ANIMALS IN HEAVEN for all the reasons I’ve already stated. Furthermore, I think it is very important to distinguish between earth now, heaven now, the millennial reign (about which there are various views), and the new earth. Passages speaking of any one of these tell us nothing about the others.

Furthermore, we need to be very careful, even tentative, when interpreting prophetic and apocalyptic passages. And, even though I believe the concept of the new earth should be taken literally, I understand that some would disagree even about that. But significantly, we KNOW that many passages are symbolic only. So, for example, Colin, I would put the white horse passage in that category. I do not believe Jesus will literally wear MANY crowns at once, I do not believe He will literally have a sword in His mouth, and I do not believe He will literally ride a white horse.

And that’s more than enough from me.
Steve
nlf.net
________
"When the Round Table is broken every man must follow Galahad or Mordred; middle
things are gone." C.S. Lewis
“The chief purpose of life … is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all the means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks. To do as we say in the Gloria in Excelsis ... We praise you, we call you holy, we worship you, we proclaim your glory, we thank you for the greatness of your splendor.” J.R.R. Tolkien

User avatar
Colswann1
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 1060
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Colswann1 » Thu May 08, 2014 6:29 pm

swfdoc1 wrote: So, for example, Colin, I would put the white horse passage in that category. I do not believe Jesus will literally wear MANY crowns at once, I do not believe He will literally have a sword in His mouth, and I do not believe He will literally ride a white horse.


So are the 3 beasts in Rev. 4v7 symbolic?
Colin Swann

Jesus’ love is constant and never wavers.

User avatar
Come forth
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
Pencil Plus (Over 500 Posts)
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Innisfail, North Qld, Australia

Re: Do Animals Go to Heaven?

Postby Come forth » Thu May 08, 2014 6:55 pm

:bow Steve you are one awesome character; and I'm quite sincere without an ounce of anything but respect.

The problem with jumping to massive conclusions based on different lexicons, and word meanings contained therein, is that we tend to use one chosen meaning to justify our personal stance; and that is always wrong. Everything must be in context and supported by many Scriptures to be valid. Steve makes this point very well. these lexicons and other tools are simply that - tools.

I also agree with Steve that some texts are purely symbolic and have to be seen as such.

However, I also agree with Colin that there is more than enough Scriptural evidence to encourage a belief that there will be animals in our eternal abode (without entering into new earth, gardens and types of heaven arguments). And some things are not going to be fully understood until all is revealed; which has not yet happened.

I also agree with Steve that we are on very dangerous ground when we declare an absolute understanding of the prophetic/apocalyptic scriptures. Not all is revealed yet.

Blessings, Graham.
May we all get eyes to see and ears to hear,
A Revelation of His Word, crystal clear.
Admitting our need to be drawn in,
Less of self, more of Him.

My prayer for us all.
God bless us with the Revelation of His Word, Graham
http://www.shekinahcloud.com/page/page/8464330.htm

Next

Return to Theology Discussion and Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


© MeasurelessMedia. All rights reservedTerms of Service



Jesus - True for You But not for Me      Website Builder     Build Website     Is Jesus God?    
Does God exist?     Build a writers website     Does truth exist?     Website online in minutes