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Romans 9

For those who like to discuss and debate theology. This is a forum for people who enjoy strong and lively debate with people who may not be likeminded. Participants are requested to always treat other opinions with respect.

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jo555
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Re: Romans 9

Postby jo555 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:57 am

I would say that overall I believe many wouldn't see what I see as God changing his mind (fitting into the parameters I laid out) as He knows everything and has planned ahead. I believe it is a matter of perspective, but that's me.
People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord looks upon the heart - Proverbs

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Paula22466
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Re: Romans 9

Postby Paula22466 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:43 pm

jo555 wrote:
Paula22466 wrote:9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
(Romans 9:9-14)

After Paul tells the church why God chose Jacob over Esau, (vs 11) he anticipates their response by asking them if they think this means God is unjust. If Paul meant to say that God chose Jacob because He looked down the corridors of time and saw that Jacob would choose Him, why would anyone think that God was being unjust?


Kinda skimmed through the responses as short on time, but I personally don't believe Paul is making a case for foreknowledge, but a case for the Potter having the right to do whatever He chooses to do with the clay . . . and knowing how to balance the scales . . . more patience being given to his objects of wrath . . .


Jo, just saw this, sorry. You must have misunderstood something I wrote, I didn't say I thought Paul was "making a case for foreknowledge," rather he is confirming that God is sovereign over election, "but because of him who calls," and it has nothing to do with "doing either or good or bad."
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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Re: Romans 9

Postby Paula22466 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:53 pm

jo555 wrote:
I'm not good with pulling scriptures by memory. I would have to take the time to look it up, of which I don't have now . . . and don't know if I want to go there so I guess I shouldn't have even commented, but thanks for responding.


If one is not prepared to support their theology with Scripture, they should at least be aware of the fact their belief has no basis in reality. You are free to believe whatever you want but you are not free to force it into the parameters of orthodox Christianity, as Steve has already alluded to. It's important to have a standard for truth, and our standard is the Word of God, otherwise, anything goes. It would be like me deciding an inch was this long _____________________. I can say, "Well this is my inch, and I don't care who else believes it because God told me I am right." The problem with that is there is a universal standard of measurement which determines exactly how long an inch is - which is what the Bible should do for us - give a standard for dotrine. While some biblical doctrines leave a bit of wiggle room for debate, whether or not God changes His mind is not one, God being unchanging, immutable, should be a staple for all Christians.
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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Re: Romans 9

Postby jo555 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:42 pm

Thanks Paula. I appreciate it. I really did not have time today. I had to go to two banks to do my pa's accounting for the year for good ole Uncle Sam, then I had to take him to his Psych.

I appreciate you girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord looks upon the heart - Proverbs

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Re: Romans 9

Postby jo555 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:05 am

Ok, have a little more time this morning.

Here is one other example, yet there are several in the bible . . . again though, I think it is a matter of perspective.

Numbers 16
41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. “You have killed the Lord’s people,” they said.

42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the tent of meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord said to Moses, 45 “Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once.” And they fell facedown.

46 Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.” 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah. 50 Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the tent of meeting, for the plague had stopped.[c]

Exodus 4:
24 At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses[b] and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it.[c] “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said. 26 So the Lord let him alone. (At that time she said “bridegroom of blood,” referring to circumcision.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One can argue that God didn't really change his mind, and I agree that when it comes to "at the deepest level", God doesn't change his mind. But, I see in layers and I believe on a more surface level, it isn't wrong to say He changed his mind; He relented; He repented - is that not another word for changing one's mind / course?

If the bible can use words like "God repented" (although I'm no expert on correct translation), I do not believe it is wrong or heretic to say God can change his mind . . . as long as we know He doesn't change, neither do his promises. As long as we understand it is a more surface view in that regard, I do not believe it is wrong to use that term.

I think what happens is we view these words through our negative associations. I remember the time I felt God was showing off to me, and it was real cute . . . like a Daddy playing with his child saying, "Look what I can do." It was cute and sweet. Yet, I didn't know how to tell anyone as we don't generally associate that word in a good light (or I didn't because even I struggled with the word "showing off", even as I saw no wrong in what I sensed Him doing). Shortly after that, as if in confirmation, I hear a prophetic word that the Lord would be showing off to his people. I don't think that contradicts scripture (and I will look to provide scriptures on another day there).

It may be us that are viewing it in a poor light.

And listen, I believed you all knew me well enough to know that I would never expect anyone to take one of my experiences as Orthodox theology and as doctrinally sound. I myself have preached here many a times that we shouldn't buy as truth at heart anything that the Lord hasn't revealed to us as his truth, and that it shouldn't contradict scripture.

It is a gift I am entrusted with though and I have been enriched by it, so I hope to continue sharing, especially in a place that I knew will help me with the correct interpretation in the sense of it needing to be biblically sound.

Yet, I appreciate you all mentioning it and elaborating on it because there appear to be new people here so this stuff has to be mentioned from time to time. This is why I often repeat something I have shared before on another thread, and sometimes I may just be looking to clarify because I would never look to be pushy. I'm above that . . . tee, hee, tongue in cheek (yes, that was a joke). :tongue

I also see in layers so where others may more see in black and white, I say there is a place for it in it's proper place.

Now I have often spoken against the idea that there is no black and white (I'm not saying that) because I believe at the deepest level, the most important level, it is as clear as black and white, or light and darkness. But, I see variety on the surface.

I believe also that the concept of God repenting, or changing course (as seen in proper light), helps to show us that God has included us in the process of this journey. Oh, for sure, He does the most important part, but He has given us a minor role too.

For instance, my neighbor may be hunger and I believe in allowing us freewill and including us in the process, God can relieve my neighbor of his hunger through my willingness to be his hands and feet and provide him food. Now, if I don't, my neighbor may experience hunger, but there is still a wonderful thing waiting for Him in his hunger if He leans into the Lord.

Does it always work that way . . . I don't believe that. Sure God can send someone else. God can miraculously make bread appear, but I also believe he will allow our humanity to play out too as it fits into his overall plans.

And do know I appreciate you all and appreciate the concern.
People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord looks upon the heart - Proverbs

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Re: Romans 9

Postby Opinion8ed » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:10 pm

Oh boy, I might have to make time, even at this busy time, to get into this. In my brief perusal of where the discussion has gone I will say that I agree with Jo. Why would we limit God by saying He cannot change His mind according to the cries of His people? Even what He "knows" can be changed without effecting His sovereignty or omniscience. The OT is full of times when God has "changed His mind", "repented Himself" after He is invoked by His people. Hence we learn to come to Him, plead with Him knowing He hears us and our prayers avail much. We have not because we ask not clearly says that if we ask, He will/may, within His overall will, intervene in the natural outcome of something, or even His specifically planned outcome, and change it.

This is not to say that God has some plans that are unchangeable - for instance, Jesus asked if it was possible that the plan of salvation be changed, knowing, of course, that it could not. The plans for Jacob and Esau could not be changed. Can we criticize God and say that isn't fair? Of course not. For some things, some people, God has very specific plans that cannot be changed but that is not the norm. We accept His will, but we always ask, knowing that He can intervene and change His mind accordingly.

Hey, Jo, this topic was discussed a long time ago and I was kind of out there on my own with this idea but I think we have lots of scripture on our side that God can, and will, change His mind, if He so desires.

Amos 7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Warning Through Visions

7 Thus the Lord God showed me, and behold, He was forming a locust-swarm when the spring crop began to sprout. And behold, the spring crop was after the king’s mowing. 2 And it came about, when it had finished eating the vegetation of the land, that I said,

“Lord God, please pardon!
How can Jacob stand,
For he is small?”
3 The Lord changed His mind about this.
“It shall not be,” said the Lord.
4 Thus the Lord God showed me, and behold, the Lord God was calling to contend with them by fire, and it consumed the great deep and began to consume the farm land. 5 Then I said,

“Lord God, please stop!
How can Jacob stand, for he is small?”
6 The Lord changed His mind about this.
“This too shall not be,” said the Lord God.


Consider Ninevah:
Jonah 3:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.


So are we saying that God never intended to destroy Ninevah if the people did not change? Was there really a choice for the people to change or not? I tend to actually believe that God fully intended to bring about the disaster He said but He waited until they had the opportunity to respond. Did He know what their response would be? Sure. Did that mean they had no choice? No. He didn't "make" them choose to change, He allowed them to. When they did, and only then, did He change His mind. Some versions actually used that phrase "changed His mind".

Oh, got grandkids coming in the door so got to go. L8r
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Re: Romans 9

Postby Opinion8ed » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:09 pm

P.S. Hey, Paula, you can see that I still have my two cents and they haven't changed from a year or so ago. :lol:
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Re: Romans 9

Postby Paula22466 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:26 pm

Hello Op8! My comments about this will be brief since I've pretty much said all I have to say about the matter in previous posts, plus it doesn't really apply to my original point.

Opinion8ed wrote: Why would we limit God by saying He cannot change His mind according to the cries of His people?
Because the character of God as revealed in the whole of Scripture declares that God is immutable, He does not change (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Isaiah 46:9-11; Ezekiel 24:14, Malachi 3:6).


The OT is full of times when God has "changed His mind", "repented Himself" after He is invoked by His people. Hence we learn to come to Him, plead with Him knowing He hears us and our prayers avail much. We have not because we ask not clearly says that if we ask, He will/may, within His overall will, intervene in the natural outcome of something, or even His specifically planned outcome, and change it

To say God changes "His specifically planned outcome," is to say God gains some sort of new information that He didn't have previously which caused Him to change and improve His plan. This is to say God's original plan wasn't as "good" as His second plan. It also implies that God is inside of time because something happened (His people cried out) which He didn't foresee in the original plan. We know God is not restrained by time and His plans and designs are always perfect with no need for new information because nothing can be new to God (John 17:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Psalm 33:11, Psalm 41:13, Psalm 90:2-4). I am not saying that God does not respond to the cries of His people, as in some of the texts you quoted. Nineveh, for example - although you said God knew the Ninevites would repent, you also said He changed His mind about judgment because He was, in some sense, waiting to see if they would? If God knew they would repent why would He have need to change His mind? God responds to His people in their daily lives in real time, but He is still outside of time and already knows what our cries will be and what He has already sovereignly decreed to be the outcome. Op8, you can't have it both ways, either God is all in all or He is not.
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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