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extraordinary wrote:Why no interest in Romans 6 and Romans 8, both of which come first?
kerrylou1 wrote:There is a conclusion to Paul's presentation of election in Romans chapter nine that concludes the whole matter for us. My own personal belief is that Paul is actually stating God's righteousness in electing salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and not the election of individuals as is so often portrayed.
Did I choose to believe? Well, I said to God, "The life I live is yours. I give myself to you."
Does that constitute a choice?
Huh?Did God make me believe? Yes, he healed me as an infant and its the reason I made my declaration.
Could I have done anything else than what I did? Are we asking, "Did God hold a gun to my head?"
Whosoever is a word that you cannot escape in the Gospel. We must preach because others must believe.
Paula22466 wrote:9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! (Romans 9:9-14)
After Paul tells the church why God chose Jacob over Esau, (vs 11) he anticipates their response by asking them if they think this means God is unjust. If Paul meant to say that God chose Jacob because He looked down the corridors of time and saw that Jacob would choose Him, why would anyone think that God was being unjust?
carpenterdaughter wrote:I'm going to try to answer the question I think Paula was originally asking. Why would people think God was being unjust to choose Jacob over Esau. Paul knew that people want to believe that there is something they can do to effect God's choosing--people want to believe that God chooses us based on our merits because if we can believe that, we can believe that we are in control--that the outcome of our lives is ordered and arranged around what we do or don't do.
The problem with believing this is that in order to believe that we are capable of the kind of righteousness that would make us acceptable to God, we would have to completely deny the truth about our fallen natures. Something terrible happened to ALL of us when Adam and Eve first disobeyed. We all fell. God didn't have to choose either one, but He did choose Jacob because He intended to have a people for Himself. He revealed Himself to Jacob and made promises because He chose to use Jacob to play a role in His plan of redemption. What Jacob had that Esau didn't was God's choosing of Him.
Yes, we have choices to make in this life--but those choices are ordained by God. He is the potter, and we are the clay. Really, it's that bottom line . . . who made me? Who gave me life? Why was I born where I was born under the hearing of the Word? Why was I in church that day to respond to the gospel? Did I, a walking dead person, even have sense enough to know there was something wrong in me?
When you are created by God, for God, there will be a day and time when the Holy Spirit awakens your heart and gives you life. It is an act of His grace and mercy that any of us have eyes to see and believe who Jesus is. It is a supernatural act of God Himself, and I believe that when more and more BAC's or regenerated believers or Christians or whatever label you want to put on us begin to truly understand who we are and how we came to be who we are, the more we will begin to truly glorify Christ and the Father in heaven. We will give praise where praise is due and be saying, like the saints in Revelations, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain."
Our fallen natures are what keep us from doing this more and more now (and I include myself in this). We want everything to be about us. We think God redeemed us through Christ so that the main focus of our existence here would be to clean up our own sin--and, I am NOT saying that it is okay for us to continue to sin, so please don't misunderstand me. I AM saying that we were created to love the Lord our God with all our hearts and all our minds and all our souls and then love our neighbors as ourselves. To love Him this way, not only do our hearts have to be miraculously given new life and a new object of affection, but we also MUST see the beauty of what He has done for us. We don't deserve it, but we have it. It is hard to accept that truth because you have to give up the idea that your "good behavior" earns something for you--even after you have been born again.
We can't gloss over ALL of what we know. We are unfinished in this life--our ultimate completion is not going to come until Jesus' return and our resurrection--when we are given new bodies and the sin nature is gone FOREVER. Yes, we must fight against that sin nature while we live, and we will because the new life inside us hates that part of us, but it will not be gone until we are resurrected. We remain here, outside of ultimate Glory, playing our parts in fulfilling ultimate Glory because GOD WILLS IT. He made us, He chose us--this is His story we are living, not ours. God does not change His plans according to human behavior. If you believe that, I think you need to really question . . .doesn't that put the ultimate power in man's hands and not God's? That is a frightening thought, in my opinion. Beyond frightening, it's actually idolatry.
Opinion8ed wrote:Hey Paula! Haven't been here for ages and was glad to see you are still around. Unfortunately I don't really have time to answer the question but really wanted to say hi. Of course it is an issue I have thought about a lot over the years like we probably all have. So I'm going to come back tomorrow and give you my two cents. Hope everything is good with you.
Anyway, that noted . . . not sure if we agree, yet I do believe God will change his mind and plans according to human behavior, but only as it fits into the larger picture of what He is doing.
One example is how He changed his mind about starting over with Moses on Mount Sinai. If He had it would not have taken away from his promise . . . from what He was doing overall.
I believe some would argue that due to God being omniscent, it isn't a change of plans as He planned for that anyway. I think that is a matter of perspective, but that's me.
jo555 wrote:And, I don't think it is blasphemous (spelling?) to say God will change his mind (beyond the foundation). I think He is secure enough in Himself to allow us liberty, as confined in his overall will.
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