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Come forth wrote:CD wroteIf we could choose "righteousness" all on our own, why did Jesus have to die? I'm pretty convinced that the only "right" thing we can choose to do on our own is fall at His feet and claim HIS righteousness and all the Grace that comes with that--and, we can't even do that until we see ourselves in need of that. The call is personal. The relationship is personal. There has to be a moment in time for each and every one of us where we KNOW we have entered into LIFE with Jesus. We are all like Lazarus, dead in our graves, until we hear Jesus calling us forth. Dead men and women cannot bring themselves to life.
This is extremely well said; however it is not Calvinist because, even though the personal choice is to simply fall at the feet of the Lord, it is still personal choice.
It is impossible for us to be righteous in our own strength or to even consider the power of our choice to be stronger than the evil which our hearts store. This is where the argument of these different voices fails; it doesn't understand the truth behind the choice that one makes. I cannot make a choice to fight my carnal nature alone and be saved. However, as you so beautifully put it, I can choose to believe the truth that in Him all things are possible and fall at His feet in surrender.
I firmly believe that many parables and Scriptures support Mike's point about God calling everyone (2Peter 3:9) and that it is His desire that none should fail to choose life. When we do choose life, that in no way detracts from the Truth that life is only available to us because of what God the Father has done to make it available; but nor does it detract from the fact that if we do not choose life then death is the alternative.
As I look at either A or C I see that one minimizes God's Sovereign power and authority while the other turns God into a despot who creates humans for the fires of hell (or whatever your understanding of hell is). Neither accepts the truth of the other. At first glance, I still need to study more, molinism appears to want to embrace the truths of the other two; and that sounds far more Scripturally sound to me.
Of course, it is the supporters of any one of these concepts who become the opponents of the others. There is a grave danger in having an open mind to the beliefs and ideas of how Scripture is interpreted, but there is also a great need for us to be open to hear the Truth. As we explore these thoughts and ideas in a forum such as this we can become the prophetic counsel that leads us deeper into the Light of Truth.
Come forth wrote:There is a mile of difference between us. And a thousand miles between God 'having' favorites and 'playing' favorites; which is totally against Scripture (and I sort of feel this is so obvious that quoting Scripture on the subject is becoming a waste as everyone simply places their own interpretations on them).
How we can deny the 'choosing' power of man (or the choosing power of God for that matter) leaves me dumbfounded.
but Calvinism is wrong; that's right, wrong.
I find some of the questions aimed at me by you Paula to almost reflect the fact that you did not even attempt to read what I was really saying. You take things out of context and often insinuate, by proxy, that I am dumb.
I have learned that the Rock I must stand on is contained in scripture and that I am called to seek the Truth meekly, humbly and with the Spirit's guidance.
What I'm trying to say is that I have come to the realization that to call myself a Calvinist, an Armenian or a Molinist takes away from my ability to glean Truth from each of these systems while remaining true to my stance on His Word and Truth. In other words I am a C,A, and M.
Paula and Graham please repent, humble yourselves - hug and make up!!
I'm sorry if I come across strongly, but I'm confused at how some have reached conclusions based on things I have said.
I'm sorry that I have eventually reacted to you Paula, but I am tired of the way you come across.
I believe the same. Ok, I have trouble with the meek thing sometimes. I do not ordinarily label myself, A, M, C, or anything else.
I was a staunch Armenian when I joined these forums many years ago and because I was willing to listen and take to heart to what others said, plus tons of digging in the scriptures for myself, of course - I am now a Calvinist. (the change did not come easy or without kicking and screaming)
Come forth wrote:Paula said:I believe the same. Ok, I have trouble with the meek thing sometimes. I do not ordinarily label myself, A, M, C, or anything else.
Paula, I think, am pretty sure, that if you look in another thread you actually state quite clearly that you are a Calvinist. you say that you did not use to be but after research you now are.
I post this not to be argumentative but just to seek clarity.
BOTH of you are missing the most important point of this entire discussion. People will die and go to hell without salvation. We have been given a charge to deliver the message of the gospel. "There is only one way: Jesus." All the rest doesn't matter, in the end, and isn't up to either of you.
Come forth wrote:CD wroteBOTH of you are missing the most important point of this entire discussion. People will die and go to hell without salvation. We have been given a charge to deliver the message of the gospel. "There is only one way: Jesus." All the rest doesn't matter, in the end, and isn't up to either of you.
I accept all that is said in appreciation of the correction.
I offer a no excuse apology to all who have followed this thread.
With thanks, Graham
mikeedwards wrote::brrr Just had to put this guy here. Never get to use him. Love you all! Just like a family.
Love the teacher. Reminds me of that old SNL skit I think. class, Class, CLASS! Cannot remember the rest.
If I am missing something here I want to know it.
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