Man is unable to choose to believe on his own!

[evangelist-1]

it's Scriptures like that that give me pause when headed down an Armenian path.
Then there are Scriptures like
John 1:12 "But to all who believed him and accepted him,
he gave the right to become children of God."
Showing a choice we make to become children.

Please note my previous post.

The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.
Not sure how that means election...

You might find interesting the post above (with red & blue) ... it reveals that
with a simple substitution of terms ... voila, it gets turned into an election passage.

[evangelist-1]

The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.
Not sure how that means election...

You might find interesting the post above (with red & blue) ... it reveals that
with a simple substitution of terms ... voila, it gets turned into an election passage.

P.S. Sure hope that C*F isn't offended too much by the bold.
I really should have okayed it with him first.[/quote]

[evangelist-1]

The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.
Not sure how that means election...

You might find interesting the post above (with red & blue) ... it reveals that
with a simple substitution of terms ... voila, it gets turned into an election passage.

P.S. Sure hope that C*F isn't offended too much by the bold.
I really should have okayed it with him foist.

[evangelist-1]

The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.
Not sure how that means election...

You might find interesting the post above (with red & blue) ... it reveals that
with a simple substitution of terms ... voila, it gets turned into an election passage.

P.S. Sure hope that C*F isn't offended too much by the bold.
I really should have okayed it with him foist of oil.

[iRoswell]

The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.
Not sure how that means election...

Hello evangelist-1,

John 1:12-13
"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God."

Lets take a closer look at the passage. Verse 12 is fairly obvious, to those who received Jesus, Jesus gives the right to become children of God.

13, however, is what's really up for discussion, so lets deal with that.

"Who were born..." Talking about born again/Christian.

"Not of blood..." Now this is up for debate. In the Greek, blood is plural so "not of bloods", which has led some to say this could mean lineage, or it can mean the blood of the sacrifices in the Old Covenant. Either way, it's saying that you can not be born again by birth, or by sacrifice.

"Of the will of the flesh..." Here, the word flesh is used many times in Scripture and it is refering to desire. A similar reference to the usage of this word combo is in 1Corinthians 7:37. You are not born again by desiring it.

"Or the will of man..." The word usage here is often used for a husband, resulting in the translation “or a husband’s decision,” or more generally, “or of any human volition whatsoever" (NET). Meaning that a person can not will himself to be born again.

All of this means that a persons belief, desires, actions, or will, can not make him born again. You can only be reborn by God.

This passage does not infer that God is "picking out" someone before they believe. On the contrary, it says in verse 12, "But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name."

First faith, then rebirth...

[evangelist-1]

This passage does not infer that God is "picking out" someone before they believe. On the contrary, it says in verse 12, "But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name."
First faith, then rebirth...

Foist of oil, I did not write this quote below … you did (several posts back, in post #???) …

"The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.
Not sure how that means election..."

I explained my reasoning why John 1:12-13 can be seen as an election passage ...
in post #???, which is close to the bottom of page 5.

So, maybe you could consider this carefully ... and then get back to me? Thanks!

[evangelist-1]

This passage does not infer that God is "picking out" someone before they believe. On the contrary, it says in verse 12, "But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name."
First faith, then rebirth...

Foist of oil, I did not write this quote below … you did (several posts back, in post #???) …
"The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.
Not sure how that means election..."

I explained my reasoning why John 1:12-13 can be seen as an election passage ...
in post #???, which is close to the bottom of page 5.

So, maybe you could consider this carefully ... and then get back to me? Thanks!

[iRoswell]

Hello evangelist-1,

I read your post, the quote boxes have gotten cluttered and so I posted the wrong quote. Below is my response to your reasoning of John 1:12-13.

John 1:12-13
"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God."

Lets take a closer look at the passage. Verse 12 is fairly obvious, to those who received Jesus, Jesus gives the right to become children of God.

13, however, is what's really up for discussion, so lets deal with that.

"Who were born..." Talking about born again/Christian.

"Not of blood..." Now this is up for debate. In the Greek, blood is plural so "not of bloods", which has led some to say this could mean lineage, or it can mean the blood of the sacrifices in the Old Covenant. Either way, it's saying that you can not be born again by birth, or by sacrifice.

"Of the will of the flesh..." Here, the word flesh is used many times in Scripture and it is refering to desire. A similar reference to the usage of this word combo is in 1Corinthians 7:37. You are not born again by desiring it.

"Or the will of man..." The word usage here is often used for a husband, resulting in the translation “or a husband’s decision,” or more generally, “or of any human volition whatsoever" (NET). Meaning that a person can not will himself to be born again.

All of this means that a persons belief, desires, actions, or will, can not make him born again. You can only be reborn by God.

This passage does not infer that God is "picking out" someone before they believe. On the contrary, it says in verse 12, "But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name."

This is showing that anyone who receives Him, not just a few God has picked out, has the right to become children of God.

First faith, then rebirth... This passage has nothing to do with election.

[Paula22466]

First faith, then rebirth...

In Paul's letter to Ephesus, the key to understanding regeneration (my opinion) is in Ephesians 2:1 & Ephesians 2:5 -even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved - Notice Paul tells us the time when regeneration occurs, "when we were dead."

Surely there can be no faith in a spiritually dead man. It must therefore come after we are "made alive." Notice the word, "made" - God determined with no outside cooperation.

[iRoswell]

First faith, then rebirth...

In Paul's letter to Ephesus, the key to understanding regeneration (my opinion) is in Ephesians 2:1 & Ephesians 2:5 -even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved - Notice Paul tells us the time when regeneration occurs, "when we were dead."

Surely there can be no faith in a spiritually dead man. It must therefore come after we are "made alive." Notice the word, "made" - God determined with no outside cooperation.

Okay, let me ask you a question before I answer...

Were the people, whom Jesus healed while walking the earth, spiritually dead?

[Paula22466]

Were the people, whom Jesus healed while walking the earth, spiritually dead?

Well, the Bible doesn't tell us about all of them. We do know the ones who He affirmed as having faith in Him/His ability to heal, were already regenerate i.e. the woman with the issue of blood, the Centurion's servant, the paralytic in Matthew 9:2.
You aren't trying to bait me are you?

[iRoswell]

Were the people, whom Jesus healed while walking the earth, spiritually dead?

Well, the Bible doesn't tell us about all of them. We do know the ones who He affirmed as having faith in Him/His ability to heal, were already regenerate i.e. the woman with the issue of blood, the Centurion's servant, the paralytic in Matthew 9:2.
You aren't trying to bait me are you?

(I do apologize, the wording does sound like baiting. That was not my intention.)

Where does the Scripture affirm they were regenerate? The Matthew 9:2 verse you use shows the man's sins are forgiven, but it doesn't say anything about regeneration...

There appears to be four key elements to salvation;
1. Justification - the forgiveness of sins
2. Regeneration - made into a new creation
3. Sanctification - made into the image of Christ
4. Glorification - our lowly bodies made like Christ's glorious body

Matthew 9:2 only says that the man's sins were forgiven, to say that he was regenerated, (my opinion), is reading too much into the Scripture. As for the other individuals you referred to, Jesus only affirms they have faith, to say faith eqauls regeneration is reading into the text, not pulling from it. Unless you can show me otherwise...

Faith means: Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."
Faith is hope that what we read in Scripture, will come to pass. God tells us that when we come to Him in faith, He will save us.

This is fascinating to study .

Ephesians 2:8-9,
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

Calvanist seem to use the above Scripture to say that faith is given to us by God, it is not a choice for us to believe. But I'm not sure I see what they see. When the passage says, "and this is not from yourselves...," it isn't refering to faith, but to, "For by grace you are saved..."

Just as Jesus healed those individuals, God saves us. Jesus is the one that healed them, and there was no way they could heal themselves. In His grace, He chose to heal them, and to do it through their faith.

Matthew 9:22,
"But when Jesus turned and saw her he said, 'Have courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well.' And the woman was healed from that hour."

In the same way, there is no possible way for us to save ourselves. It is a free gift from God who chooses to give it to all who come by faith.

[evangelist-1]

In Paul's letter to Ephesus, the key to understanding regeneration (my opinion) is in Ephesians 2:1 & Ephesians 2:5 -even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved - Notice Paul tells us the time when regeneration occurs, "when we were dead."
Surely there can be no faith in a spiritually dead man. It must therefore come after we are "made alive." Notice the word, "made" - God determined with no outside cooperation.

They can just say, "Your red is inconclusive. Here's the order of events ...
-- we were dead in trespasses
-- we believed the gospel
-- God made us alive ...
Paul just left out step 2!"

Note: And it's true that lots of info, i.e. details, are omitted from passages of Scripture!

[Paula22466]

Faith is hope that what we read in Scripture, will come to pass. God tells us that when we come to Him in faith, He will save us.

I'm not sure how you define the word "hope" above. The biblical meaning of hope is quite different than how we use the word. If you've never pursued that study, I encourage you. Biblically speaking, when we "hope" what we read in scripture will come to pass, we are confidant it will. Nevertheless, I think faith has more to do with "trust" than hope alone (although it's integral).
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of [having complete trust in Christ] what we hope for, [and knowing He will do it] being convinced of what we do not see. Do you think people can muster up trust in Christ on their own?

And I agree completely with your second sentence, all who come to Him will be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9,
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

Calvanist seem to use the above Scripture to say that faith is given to us by God, it is not a choice for us to believe. But I'm not sure I see what they see. When the passage says, "and this is not from yourselves...," it isn't refering to faith, but to, "For by grace you are saved..."

"Calvinist's" aren't the only group who interpret the above as "faith" being the gift of God. And I believe it IS a choice, man is free to choose to believe - but man will always choose what he wants most. A spiritually dead sinner will not choose to believe anything righteous, he first must be "made alive."

What do you think about the, "so that no one can boast" portion? If we are able to generate saving faith on our own without any assistance from God - don't we have something to boast about?

Just as Jesus healed those individuals, God saves us. Jesus is the one that healed them, and there was no way they could heal themselves. In His grace, He chose to heal them, and to do it through their faith.

The majority of the healing texts say nothing about faith, and I'm pretty sure the three dead people Christ brought back to life didn't have any.

[iRoswell]

Hello, hope you had a good weekend???

I do agree, hope defined as trust fits well. I like how Ray Comfort relates it to jumping out of a plane with a back pack. You put your hope/trust in the back pack.

As for not being able to boast, I don't see how that affects faith in God. Faith is not a merit, or work, that one can boast about. To say that because I have faith, I can boast about being saved, is like saying that I can boast how my faith affected a doctor performing heart surgery. My faith does not add to the operation one little bit. It's the doctor who can boast because he performed the operation, not my faith.

I didn't mean to offend you by saying "Calvinist". I've personally never heard anyone else use that Scripture for that purpose. So that's why I said Calvinist.


At any rate, I still can not see how Ephesians 2:8-9 deals with faith being the subject of, "it is a gift from God."
Both grace and faith are feminine nouns in the Greek, but the word “this” (touto) is neuter and therefore does not refer specifically to either grace or faith, but to the whole concept of salvation, which, of course, is certainly a gift of God.

As for the healings, it appears that every time things got personal, faith was involved. For example;
Matthew 8:13, 9:2, 9:18-30, 15:28, Luke 17:19, Luke 18:42, all have references to their faith. When a Gospel simply says a group of people is healed, it doesn't reference individual faith nor individuals in anyway. It's just a blanket reference so it can't be said either way.
However, it is interesting to note that in Mark 6:5, it says that Jesus couldn't do many miracles because of their unbelief.

Also, two of the three dead being raised to life, have references to faith. Mary and Martha for Lazarus, and Jairus for his daughter, (John 11:40 and Mark 5:35-36). Now this could be so they could believe, but with Jairus, the wording seems to indicate otherwise.

Hope you have a great week.