Man is unable to choose to believe on his own!

[iRoswell]

I'm glad you got a laugh out of it . We all have to smile sometimes.

As for vs. 6 and 8 that you're referring to. That's not talking about Gentiles and Jews. That's talking about the children of promise, Isaac's line, verses those who are not, Ishmael's line. He is saying that just because you are a descendant of Abraham, doesn't mean you are a child of the promise.

[iRoswell]

I do want to say that I'm neither Calvinist or Armenian. I think, like Graham said, there are errors present in both arguments. Which makes me lean towards, the fact that we don't have it all figured out. Every time I think I've got it, a curve ball is thrown at me.

But I will forever make the stand that God will do whatever He desires; and it will always be just, righteous, awesome, and will bring Him the praise He so deserves!!!!

[iRoswell]

Here is a quote from Warren Wiersbe, taken from his commentary on Romans nine. I thought it went well with our current discussions on sovereignty.

"We need to decide what kind of righteousness we are
seeking, whether we are depending on good works and
character, or trusting Christ alone for salvation. God
does not save people on the basis of birth or behavior.
He saves them “by grace, through faith” (Eph. 2:8–9).
It is not a question of whether or not we are among
God’s elect. That is a mystery known only to God. He
offers us His salvation by faith. The offer is made to
“whosoever will” (Rev. 22:17). After we have trusted
Christ, then we have the witness and evidence that we
are among His elect (Eph. 1:4–14; 1 Thess. 1:1–10).
But first we must trust Him and receive by faith His
righteousness that alone can guarantee heaven.
No one will deny that there are many mysteries
connected with divine sovereignty and human respon-
sibility. Nowhere does God ask us to choose between
these two truths, because they both come from God
and are a part of God’s plan. They do not compete;
they cooperate. The fact that we cannot fully under-
stand how they work together does not deny the fact
that they do. When a man asked Charles Spurgeon
how he reconciled divine sovereignty and human
responsibility, Spurgeon replied: 'I never try to recon-
cile friends!'"

The entire commentary can be found in his book;
"Romans: How to Be Right with God, Yourself, and Others"

But I suggest, if you don't already have it, getting his full commentary of the Old and New Testaments.

[Paula22466]

When a man asked Charles Spurgeon
how he reconciled divine sovereignty and human
responsibility, Spurgeon replied: 'I never try to recon-
cile friends!'

I've always loved that quote!
Btw congrats on stealing second place from me

[iRoswell]

When a man asked Charles Spurgeon
how he reconciled divine sovereignty and human
responsibility, Spurgeon replied: 'I never try to recon-
cile friends!'

I've always loved that quote!
Btw congrats on stealing second place from me

Yeah, Spurgeon is my favorite Calvanist .

Thank you, I was very surprised that I placed second. I'm so new to all of this and everyone has been so generous and kind in their remarks. I'm really blessed to have found a place here at FaithWriters!

[tomoral]

Yes, congrats to you Joseph for a very fine presentation of "Equipped to Defend" we here at Faithwriters are blessed to have a fine writer such as yourself. I think that is proper grammar, but you get my drift!

[iRoswell]

Yes, congrats to you Joseph for a very fine presentation of "Equipped to Defend" we here at Faithwriters are blessed to have a fine writer such as yourself. I think that is proper grammar, but you get my drift!

I really do appreciate all the warmth I have received on these forums. Being able to read the various stories that everyone has written has truly been a blessing!

Thanks tomoral!

[evangelist-1]

I do want to say that I'm neither Calvinist or Armenian.
Every time I think I've got it, a curve ball is thrown at me.

Your Signature: "Reality doesn't care if you believe in it."

Yes, perhaps everyone agrees that because of the Scriptures ...
the truth about this has to be some combination of both election and free will.

How about? ...
The elected person has free will to CHOOSE to accept (or reject) God's free gift of grace-faith.
Then, if he/she does decide to accept it, he/she has free will to CHOOSE to co-operate
(or not co-operate) with the Holy Spirit in going through the sanctification process.

This is a combination of God's election and man's free will choices.

IMO, the quote in your signature would be much more accurate, if stated:
"The Truth doesn't care if you believe in it."
(In reality, there are truthful ideas/statements and erroneous ideas/statements.)

[iRoswell]

I do want to say that I'm neither Calvinist or Armenian.
Every time I think I've got it, a curve ball is thrown at me.

Your Signature: "Reality doesn't care if you believe in it."

Yes, perhaps everyone agrees that because of the Scriptures ...
the truth about this has to be some combination of both election and free will.

How about? ...
The elected person has free will to CHOOSE to accept (or reject) God's free gift of grace-faith.
Then, if he/she does decide to accept it, he/she has free will to CHOOSE to co-operate
(or not co-operate) with the Holy Spirit in going through the sanctification process.

This is a combination of God's election and man's free will choices.

IMO, the quote in your signature would be much more accurate, if stated:
"The Truth doesn't care if you believe in it."
(In reality, there are truthful ideas/statements and erroneous ideas/statements.)

The problem, as I see it, with your statement is in not really showing God's sovereignty. You said, elect, but yet the person can reject... Calvinist teach a doctrine called irresistible grace. If God calls you, you can not help but come. Your statement is in every regard an Armenian one. There is always a choice. But the Bible says in Romans 8:29-30
"For God knew His people in advance, and He chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, He called them to come to Him. And having called them, He gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, He gave them His glory."

You see, it's Scriptures like that that give me pause when headed down an Armenian path. Then there are Scriptures like John 1:12
"But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God."
Showing a choice we make to become children.

God knows and I trust Him. So until He gives me insight through His Word, I'll just keep on keeping on!!!

As for my signature, I enjoy reading Star Wars books and that is a quote from one of the characters in it named Boba Fett.

[JosephTyler]

Evangelist,

When these types of questions come up with the friends and family around me and when I clearly detect a charge. I normally like to take the person aside and try to understand what's behind it. Is there someone in your life that you feel God didn't reach out to? Have you felt some disappointment or failure on the part of God in someway?

Their is a song sung by Aaron Shust called, "My Savior, My God" The first line goes, "I'm not skilled to understand, what God has willed, what God has planned, I only know at His right hand, stands One who is my Savior. I take Him at His word and deed. Christ died to save me, this I read. And in my heart I find a need of Him to be my savior." I believe that this is only limited by free choice, not by Divine sorting.

Revelation 3:20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. (NIV)
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. (NKJV)
lo, I have stood at the door, and I knock; if any one may hear my voice, and may open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (YLT)

It's clear from the Bible that God, "set eternity in the human heart." (Eccl 3:11) I believe that to be a deep soul hunger for God ultimately in the hearts of every person. That God knocks at the door of the heart of every person, and every person needs to make a decision whether or not of open. Evangelist, If I'm hearing your correctly, and I could be mistaken. Is that God decides ahead of time that some people are rubbish and He marks them with a don't bother sign. That really disturbs me and seems to run counter to the grain of of scripture.

In my estimation I think we can see a parable in the life of the man by the pool of Bethesda. Clearly He would not have been able to rise, pick up his bed and walk away without the healing power of the Lord Jesus Christ. But Jesus acts for him did not and would not include being propped up and made to rise with no effort. He made effort because he believed and he rose to a new life. Only God knows where deep down a man's effort ends and God's Spirit takes over.

[Paula22466]

You see, it's Scriptures like that that give me pause when headed down an Armenian path. Then there are Scriptures like John 1:12
"But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God."
Showing a choice we make to become children.

iR, you left out John 1:13 [bold mine] children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

if John is correct, we are not made children of God by our own decisions, then we must be made children of God by God's decision, before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)

Lest we think we "believed and accepted" Christ out of our own decision, then why? We are smarter, more humble, more intelligent or better looking than unbelievers? Maybe because we are born to the right parents or in the right country. We believe because we are more spiritual, deep thinkers, logical? Why do we believe? Are we any of those things?

[Paula22466]

In my estimation I think we can see a parable in the life of the man by the pool of Bethesda. Clearly He would not have been able to rise, pick up his bed and walk away without the healing power of the Lord Jesus Christ. But Jesus acts for him did not and would not include being propped up and made to rise with no effort. He made effort because he believed and he rose to a new life. Only God knows where deep down a man's effort ends and God's Spirit takes over.

I'm not sure the man by the pool makes your best case. This poor guy was there for 38 years. He must have been one pathetic dude to not make it into that water for 38 years. If he only moved a quarter of an inch a year, he could have made it. The text gives no implication that he had any faith at all, he arose at Christ's command (John 5:8) and later, we learn he didn't even know who Christ was (John 5:12-13).

[evangelist-1]

John 1:
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,
to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

Those who believe do so NOT of their own doing, but of God's doing!

[Come forth]

I'm not sure the man by the pool makes your best case. This poor guy was there for 38 years. He must have been one pathetic dude to not make it into that water for 38 years.

It's not that this guy at the pool was unable to make the water, even in small increments, but rather that he could not make it into the water first (John 5:4). And he was no more pathetic than any other poor invalid; which includes all of us really in some way or other.

Once again we just ignore all Scriptures that include anything at all about man being responsible for his own personal response to God. God's call for Israel, both natural and spiritual, to answer with willing hearts is right through the Scriptures.

Both the Calvinist and Armenian arguments ignore far too much of Scripture and try to rationalize with human intellect enough of the argument to justify their own stance.

Mission impossible.

Blessings, Graham

[iRoswell]

I'm not sure the man by the pool makes your best case. This poor guy was there for 38 years. He must have been one pathetic dude to not make it into that water for 38 years.

It's not that this guy at the pool was unable to make the water, even in small increments, but rather that he could not make it into the water first (John 5:4). And he was no more pathetic than any other poor invalid; which includes all of us really in some way or other.

Once again we just ignore all Scriptures that include anything at all about man being responsible for his own personal response to God. God's call for Israel, both natural and spiritual, to answer with willing hearts is right through the Scriptures.

Both the Calvinist and Armenian arguments ignore far too much of Scripture and try to rationalize with human intellect enough of the argument to justify their own stance.

Mission impossible.

Blessings, Graham

Well said!

I'm in your corner Graham. Although, I don't know how much good that'll do ya' .