Man is unable to choose to believe on his own!

[Paula22466]

Once again we just ignore all Scriptures that include anything at all about man being responsible for his own personal response to God. God's call for Israel, both natural and spiritual, to answer with willing hearts is right through the Scriptures.

There's no doubt (to me) man is responsible for his response.

Both the Calvinist and Armenian arguments ignore far too much of Scripture and try to rationalize with human intellect enough of the argument to justify their own stance.

Graham, this may be true for some, but please do not assume it is for everyone. Some of us, as you, sincerely strive to understand the whole of scripture to the best of their ability and would never, knowingly, use the Bible to justify what was clearly untrue. I don't believe taking a "stance" is wrong, particularly on the essentials. Not that the topic of election and free will is essential, but it should be able to be discussed without people being accused of purposefully abusing the text.

[evangelist-1]

Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Historically, man has always been unable to believe in Jesus' gospel.
Historically, God has always been required to reveal to man that the gospel is true.

God has purposely "somewhat hidden" in the Bible some of His major spiritual Truths.
And He certainly had His reasons for doing this.
So far, my list is up to 6 (Calvinism vs Arminianism is one),
and IMO God's reasons for hiding them.
.

[Come forth]

Hey Paula, I'm sorry if what I said seemed offensive and personal. It was not meant as such.

My main point was this;

Both the Calvinist and Armenian arguments ignore far too much of Scripture and try to rationalize with human intellect enough of the argument to justify their own stance.

However, let us reflect back slightly. You called the man in John 5:5, who happened to be disabled and earned the compassion of the Lord, a "pathetic dude". And when you did this, you took John 5:5 right out of context with John 5:4. Sorry, but you did that.

My point relates to the main theme of this thread. When we claim that we are unable to make a choice of our own we ignore all the Scriptures that tell us we must choose to follow God; and there are bucket loads of them. When we claim it is all by our own choice we also ignore all of the Scriptures that tell us He is the Author and finisher of our faith; another army of bucket carriers are needed here too.

The mystery is far from revealed and our intellect will never understand the ambiguity of this truth.

Does God hide things in His Word? Absolutely. I am a great believer of the Revelation of the Mysteries of the Kingdom being revealed more and more in these last days. We need to keep our minds humbled and ready to accept that most of what we believe is only our carnal minds doing the best it can. But like Paul's mirror, the image will become clearer as true Prophets come forth to reveal the truth of God's Word.

The reason God hides things in His Word is not really such a great mystery. Prov 25:2 tells us that it is the glory of God to hide a thing and the glory of kings to search a matter. The word for 'thing' and the word for 'matter' are exactly the same Hebrew word "Dabar"; and it means Word. So God has hidden His Word (and actually if you check it right out the message is that He has hidden Himself in that Word) so that we can search Him out within it. It's talking about chasing after Him just like the lover in Song Of songs; looking for intimacy, following the romance and having a courtship with the groom.

Again, no offense meant and I apologize to anyone who felt I was rude.

Blessings, Graham.

[Paula22466]

Hey Paula, I'm sorry if what I said seemed offensive and personal. It was not meant as such.

Thank you Graham, you didn't need to apologize but I'm grateful that you have.

My point relates to the main theme of this thread. When we claim that we are unable to make a choice of our own we ignore all the Scriptures that tell us we must choose to follow God; and there are bucket loads of them. When we claim it is all by our own choice we also ignore all of the Scriptures that tell us He is the Author and finisher of our faith; another army of bucket carriers are needed here too.

I agree completely. I just want you to consider the fact that I haven't come to certain theological conclusions based on my ego, and only cherry picking, if you will, the texts that seem to justify my view. And although I do take a stance on this subject (God is sovereign over salvation) it does not mean I claim to understand everything about the hows and whys, nor do I believe I will ever be able to fully comprehend it. Just as other doctrines, which I'm sure you take a stance on - God being three in One for example, cannot be fully understood by finite minds but there is more than enough evidence in the Bible for believers to confidently be able to affirm its truth.

When you use the word "ignore" as you did above, you are presupposing something which is not true in my case, and many others who have the reformed view. As a matter of fact, the majority of reformers I know didn't begin that way, most (like myself) were brought kicking and screaming the entire way. When you use the word "ignore" you negate the years I have spent in blood, sweat, and tears pouring over all the text, considering both sides, and spending much more time on those passages which seem to contradict than not - the total opposite of ignoring.

And because of all of this, (not without much prayer as well) I have found what I believe to be enough evidence in the Bible to take a stance. I believe all those "scriptures which tell us we must choose to follow God," can be understood in the light of God's sovereignty over salvation (that is, as much as one can understand anything about God).

So, I say all of that to say this: we should be careful to not judge the motives of people who disagree with our theology. We can disagree, and I believe debate can be healthy, but if we are going to do it, let's do it right - by examining the theology, not the theologian.

[iRoswell]

Hey Paula, I'm sorry if what I said seemed offensive and personal. It was not meant as such.

Thank you Graham, you didn't need to apologize but I'm grateful that you have.

My point relates to the main theme of this thread. When we claim that we are unable to make a choice of our own we ignore all the Scriptures that tell us we must choose to follow God; and there are bucket loads of them. When we claim it is all by our own choice we also ignore all of the Scriptures that tell us He is the Author and finisher of our faith; another army of bucket carriers are needed here too.

I agree completely. I just want you to consider the fact that I haven't come to certain theological conclusions based on my ego, and only cherry picking, if you will, the texts that seem to justify my view. And although I do take a stance on this subject (God is sovereign over salvation) it does not mean I claim to understand everything about the hows and whys, nor do I believe I will ever be able to fully comprehend it. Just as other doctrines, which I'm sure you take a stance on - God being three in One for example, cannot be fully understood by finite minds but there is more than enough evidence in the Bible for believers to confidently be able to affirm its truth.

When you use the word "ignore" as you did above, you are presupposing something which is not true in my case, and many others who have the reformed view. As a matter of fact, the majority of reformers I know didn't begin that way, most (like myself) were brought kicking and screaming the entire way. When you use the word "ignore" you negate the years I have spent in blood, sweat, and tears pouring over all the text, considering both sides, and spending much more time on those passages which seem to contradict than not - the total opposite of ignoring.

And because of all of this, (not without much prayer as well) I have found what I believe to be enough evidence in the Bible to take a stance. I believe all those "scriptures which tell us we must choose to follow God," can be understood in the light of God's sovereignty over salvation (that is, as much as one can understand anything about God).

So, I say all of that to say this: we should be careful to not judge the motives of people who disagree with our theology. We can disagree, and I believe debate can be healthy, but if we are going to do it, let's do it right - by examining the theology, not the theologian.

Well said! I'm one of those who are in the kicking and screaming part, maybe... I'm in the process of digesting everything I see. I'm thankful for the posts on this subject, both sides of the debate, and hope to see a lot more as the years go by.

What gets me about this forum in particular, is the diplomacy! I'm so surprised at how well mannered everyone is here. I've been on a few forums and it's brutal sometimes. I typically don't like to post anything because you can be sure, someone, will begin to argue rather than debate.

However, on this forum, every time I see an argument beginning to take form, the two parties come together and talk it out. The love of God is clearly evident here!

[iRoswell]

Hey Paula, I'm sorry if what I said seemed offensive and personal. It was not meant as such.

My main point was this;

Both the Calvinist and Armenian arguments ignore far too much of Scripture and try to rationalize with human intellect enough of the argument to justify their own stance.

However, let us reflect back slightly. You called the man in John 5:5, who happened to be disabled and earned the compassion of the Lord, a "pathetic dude". And when you did this, you took John 5:5 right out of context with John 5:4. Sorry, but you did that.

My point relates to the main theme of this thread. When we claim that we are unable to make a choice of our own we ignore all the Scriptures that tell us we must choose to follow God; and there are bucket loads of them. When we claim it is all by our own choice we also ignore all of the Scriptures that tell us He is the Author and finisher of our faith; another army of bucket carriers are needed here too.

The mystery is far from revealed and our intellect will never understand the ambiguity of this truth.

Does God hide things in His Word? Absolutely. I am a great believer of the Revelation of the Mysteries of the Kingdom being revealed more and more in these last days. We need to keep our minds humbled and ready to accept that most of what we believe is only our carnal minds doing the best it can. But like Paul's mirror, the image will become clearer as true Prophets come forth to reveal the truth of God's Word.

The reason God hides things in His Word is not really such a great mystery. Prov 25:2 tells us that it is the glory of God to hide a thing and the glory of kings to search a matter. The word for 'thing' and the word for 'matter' are exactly the same Hebrew word "Dabar"; and it means Word. So God has hidden His Word (and actually if you check it right out the message is that He has hidden Himself in that Word) so that we can search Him out within it. It's talking about chasing after Him just like the lover in Song Of songs; looking for intimacy, following the romance and having a courtship with the groom.

Again, no offense meant and I apologize to anyone who felt I was rude.

Blessings, Graham.

You are very articulate and I love reading your posts!

Both you, and Paula22466, have come across as naturals in Biblical debate and diplomacy!

[Come forth]

When you use the word "ignore" you negate the years I have spent in blood, sweat, and tears pouring over all the text, considering both sides, and spending much more time on those passages which seem to contradict than not - the total opposite of ignoring.

I certainly would never underestimate the blood, sweat and tears and the years of soul searching and painful honesty that are required to face up to truth; especially the truth about self. Anyone who can honestly discuss Jesus in their life has gone through a lot of this. However, that does not change the fact, that even in the last minute of our life, we will come to see things we have ignored and been doing for years unwillingly or unknowingly. That is the nature of the carnal beast which is the mark of man and at enmity with the Spirit of God. We shouldn't be offended by that truth; it simply is. And no amount of those drops of blood, falling tears and sticky perspiration will ever be able to bring us to a point where we have reached perfection or can claim we have missed (or even ignored) nothing.

I don't discredit you.

So, I say all of that to say this: we should be careful to not judge the motives of people who disagree with our theology. We can disagree, and I believe debate can be healthy, but if we are going to do it, let's do it right - by examining the theology, not the theologian.

I find this interesting. If you want to examine Jesus; you had better understand His theology. If you want to understand His theology then you must look at Him.

To separate Jesus from his Word is impossible. I am not a theologian; nothing like it. But I know that I am what I believe; and it is only as my belief comes into line with the Word of God that I become what Christ would have me become. (Rom 12:1-2 and Eph 5:26)

I understand that our discussions should never become personal and that point is taken. But nor can we separate a man from the word he believes. After all, it is and always will be, from both sides of this argument, the mirror through which we see his eternity.

Blessings, Graham

[Come forth]

Both you, and Paula22466, have come across as naturals in Biblical debate and diplomacy!

Thank you, but I'm not sure I agree with you. It is easy to discuss things here, if you just take the time to pray and think before you respond. But face to face....????

God is still working on this fleshly being.

Blessings, Graham

[iRoswell]

Both you, and Paula22466, have come across as naturals in Biblical debate and diplomacy!

Thank you, but I'm not sure I agree with you. It is easy to discuss things here, if you just take the time to pray and think before you respond. But face to face....????

God is still working on this fleshly being.

Blessings, Graham

We are all in the same leaky boat, waiting for our Captain to come, and carry us home.

1 Corinthians 10:13
"The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, He will show you a way out so that you can endure."

[Paula22466]

So, I say all of that to say this: we should be careful to not judge the motives of people who disagree with our theology. We can disagree, and I believe debate can be healthy, but if we are going to do it, let's do it right - by examining the theology, not the theologian.

I find this interesting. If you want to examine Jesus; you had better understand His theology. If you want to understand His theology then you must look at Him.

To separate Jesus from his Word is impossible.

I agree with your statement here absolutely. I could have been more clear when I referred to "the theologian." I had the people here on the boards in mind, not Jesus.

I am not a theologian; nothing like it. But I know that I am what I believe; and it is only as my belief comes into line with the Word of God that I become what Christ would have me become. (Rom 12:1-2 and Eph 5:26)

You are always so eloquent. Have you ever thought of writing? I suppose in one sense you are right, our thoughts, actions, words can speak volumes about our character (Mark 7:20). But when I said we ought not examine the theologian rather than his theology, I meant in terms of exegesis. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but I think the best way to discuss, expound,disclose, biblical doctrines are to unpack the relevant passages and go from there. We may never see eye to eye on this, Graham, I suspect our personalities are going in opposite directions, mine being analytically bent and yours amiable.

[Paula22466]

Well said! I'm one of those who are in the kicking and screaming part, maybe... I'm in the process of digesting everything I see. I'm thankful for the posts on this subject, both sides of the debate, and hope to see a lot more as the years go by.

I'm sure you will see much more, it's always been the number one hot button.

What gets me about this forum in particular, is the diplomacy! I'm so surprised at how well mannered everyone is here. I've been on a few forums and it's brutal sometimes. I typically don't like to post anything because you can be sure, someone, will begin to argue rather than debate.

I can tell you haven't been here long In 2007 when I first started posting here, things did get brutal from time to time, plus there were many more people posting than there is now. I was relatively new to theology forums and found it difficult to tolerate people who couldn't agree with me. I still struggle with that. But, thankfully, Jesus hasn't given up on me yet.

[iRoswell]

Well said! I'm one of those who are in the kicking and screaming part, maybe... I'm in the process of digesting everything I see. I'm thankful for the posts on this subject, both sides of the debate, and hope to see a lot more as the years go by.

I'm sure you will see much more, it's always been the number one hot button.

What gets me about this forum in particular, is the diplomacy! I'm so surprised at how well mannered everyone is here. I've been on a few forums and it's brutal sometimes. I typically don't like to post anything because you can be sure, someone, will begin to argue rather than debate.

I can tell you haven't been here long In 2007 when I first started posting here, things did get brutal from time to time, plus there were many more people posting than there is now. I was relatively new to theology forums and found it difficult to tolerate people who couldn't agree with me. I still struggle with that. But, thankfully, Jesus hasn't given up on me yet.

Well, I came at the right time then. I think most of us have issues with someone disagreeing with us. I know for myself, I tend to make it personal. If the other person is doing the same, the an argument will definitely come. I do this even though I know that I am but a herald, shouting out a message that is not at all mine. It's His Word, and He opens the eyes of a person at His choosing, not mine.

The issue is figuring out whose eyes are needing to be opened, theirs or mine.

[evangelist-1]

I believe Paula especially will enjoy this ...

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,
to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

The original wording above can easily be interpreted as meaning ...
those who believe and receive the gospel message became children of God, born of God.

But, let's replace "those who believe in His name" with "Christians" ...

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,
to Christians: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

IMO, this interpretation totally reverses the common understanding of the passage,
and now what we have is a powerful election passage ...

1 -- Many people are presented with the gospel message
2 -- God gives His free gift of grace-faith to some
3 -- Most receive (accept) the gospel, believe in it, trust in it, have faith in it
4 -- God gave these ones the right to become children of God, born of God

[evangelist-1]

it's Scriptures like that that give me pause when headed down an Armenian path.
Then there are Scriptures like
John 1:12 "But to all who believed him and accepted him,
he gave the right to become children of God."
Showing a choice we make to become children.

Please note my previous post.

[iRoswell]

it's Scriptures like that that give me pause when headed down an Armenian path.
Then there are Scriptures like
John 1:12 "But to all who believed him and accepted him,
he gave the right to become children of God."
Showing a choice we make to become children.

Please note my previous post.

The Scripture reads that to all who believe and accept Jesus for who He is, they are given the right, the privilege, of becoming children of God/Christians. They are made children/Christians, not through human means, i.e., the flesh or will, but through God.

Not sure how that means election...