Once Saved Always Saved?

[lish1936]

according to 1 John 2:19 - those who leave the faith were never partakers of the faith

Yep, can't get any plainer than that.

The parable of the Prodigal Son does not support your interpretation of 1 John 2:19. You leave no room for forgiveness and restoration.


Let's not confuse someone who is against Christ (anti-christs whose intent was always to be in opposition to Christ- sheeps in wolves clothing, as it were) in 1 John 2:19 with the following wonderful testimony of restoration.

Born again believer since I was 16 but around 24 I stepped away from God for 6 and a half years.]

Lillian

[cindyjo]

You can lose faith and step away. But even when you do you are still saved your just being ignorant to God and his ways. I was a saved/ Born again believer since I was 16 but around 24 I stepped away from God for 6 and a half years. I ended up in a cult. I was also oppressed and possessed as far as I can tell. I did accept Jesus as my savior before that. So yes when your saved your saved. But you can choose to ignore God..

I know from personal experience that you can get away from the Lord and become worldly. I did it. The problem is that after being saved the sin nature is still present. There are now two

'natures' warring one against the other.

[Paula22466]

according to 1 John 2:19 - those who leave the faith were never partakers of the faith

The parable of the Prodigal Son does not support your interpretation of 1 John 2:19. You leave no room for forgiveness and restoration.

It doesn't need to. 1 John 2:19 doesn't leave room for forgiveness and restoration because johns subject matter would never seek such.

Let's not confuse someone who is against Christ (anti-christs whose intent was always to be in opposition to Christ- sheeps in wolves clothing, as it were) in 1 John 2:19 with the following wonderful testimony of restoration.

Born again believer since I was 16 but around 24 I stepped away from God for 6 and a half years.]

Lillian

Your assumption that the text I quoted was meant to refer specifically to this person is wrong. I was making a general observation about what was being discussed "how to know if one is truly saved." It's obvious this person couldn't be one like John refers to in his epistle since he/she is now (whether previously or not) a believer. Let's not put words in each other's mouths.

[cindyjo]

Only a saved person cannot be possessed, but can be opressed. If one trusts in Christ with all their heart, having repented and placed their faith in Christ alone they can be assured that their salvation is secure because God promised in so many verses.
1 Peter 1:4 tells us that we have an inheritance reserved in heaven that will never fade away.Read the previous verse 1Peter 1:3
A "lively hope" living hope through the resurection of Christ 1Peter 1:5 who are "kept by the power of God through faith..."

Crucifying the flesh daily and seeking the Lord's face continually is what it takes to remain faithful. But God is faithful and His promises are true.

[lish1936]

according to 1 John 2:19 - those who leave the faith were never partakers of the faith.

Your assumption that the text I quoted was meant to refer specifically to this person is wrong. I was making a general observation about what was being discussed "how to know if one is truly saved." It's obvious this person couldn't be one like John refers to in his epistle since he/she is now (whether previously or not) a believer. Let's not put words in each other's mouths.

Paula,
You are free to pick and choose whatever part of the discussion on which to make your comments. I was simply following the logical progression of the topic that began at 7:58 a.m. with Patk2032's statement about his salvation, turning away(falling away if you will), and subsequent return to the Lord at age 24. His statement was the nucleus of subsequent comments between himself and iRoswell, and certainly the basis for mine.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I made the mistake of trying to put your words within the context of the general discussion. But I guess, by your own admission, you had left the initial topic and had moved on to talking in generalities about others who may have admitted to leaving/ turning away for a time. If that's the case - The Prodigal Son as a general principle still applies.

Even in your "generalities", you cannot determine if you're saved by measuring yourself against 1John 2:19. These "anti-christ(ers) were ALWAYS AGAINST Christ; even when they pretended not to be. There's the distinction, and quite obvious to me.

Lillian

[Paula22466]

I made the mistake

Thank you
I noticed you aren't wishing me blessings anymore

Even in your "generalities", you cannot determine if you're saved by measuring yourself against 1John 2:19. These "anti-christ(ers) were ALWAYS AGAINST Christ; even when they pretended not to be. There's the distinction, and quite obvious to me.

Lillian

I wholeheartedly disagree. The main idea of the chapter is teach believers how to spot false converts who were claiming to be one of them (same way people do today)

Since I am getting a strange vibe from you I think from now on I will refrain from engaging you and humbly sit at your feet to learn, all in the spirit of Titus 2:4

[lish1936]

I made the mistake

Thank you
I noticed you aren't wishing me blessings anymore

Since I am getting a strange vibe from you I think from now on I will refrain from engaging you and humbly sit at your feet to learn, all in the spirit of Titus 2:4

Not a problem, but Titus 2:4

If you search through the threads, you'll see that I often forget to
write, "Blessings."

Blessings,

Lillian

[pheeweed]

Even in your "generalities", you cannot determine if you're saved by measuring yourself against 1John 2:19. These "anti-christ(ers) were ALWAYS AGAINST Christ; even when they pretended not to be. There's the distinction, and quite obvious to me.

Lillian

I'm curious how you know the "anti-christ(ers)" were always against Christ. I didn't see anything in the context to imply that. It sounds like they were in the body and then went out from the body and then were teaching lies instead of truth. But those who had the Spirit weren't like them because they knew the truth. I John 2:20-25. If people (talking generalities here) who believed they were saved go out from the body and deny the Son, they couldn't have had the Spirit or they would have known the truth and not denied the Son.

[lish1936]

Phee,

As I understand the entire context and not just the two verses, John couples the anti-christ(ers) with The Anti-Christ, who by definition can never be or never become a believer. Anti-christ(ers) have the same nature as the Anti-Christ. In my Bible there is also a cross reference to Matt 24:24 where these anti-christ(ers) are called false Christs and false prophets who try to mimic the works of Christ.

We don't have to proffer a guess as to who he's referring to in 1 John 2:19.
John himself gives us one definition of these anti-christ(ers) in his next book 2 John 2:7.
"For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming into the world. This is a deceiver and an anti-christ" (2 John 2:7).

In Revelations, John also uses the word "deceiver" to describe Satan whom Christ calls the "father of liars."

As Euclid said: 'Things which are equal to the same thing are equal to each other.

Anti-Christ = Satan.
Anti-Christ = Anti-Christ(ers)
Therefore
Anti-Christ(ers) = Satan who was never a believer.

And so, I've come to the conclusion that these anti-christ(ers) were always wolves in sheep's clothing, but others may disagree.

Actually, I think you're saying what I'm saying, but saying it differently.

If people (talking generalities here) who believed they were saved go out from the body and deny the Son, they couldn't have had the Spirit or they would have known the truth and not denied the Son

I have no problem with differences of opinion; even when I'm right. ( I'm just kidding, but perhaps I shouldn't have written that because I've noticed it's possible to leave out key words when quoting that changes the original statement).

Seriously, since you asked, I hope I've at least given a plausible explanation of what I believe 1John 2:19 is all about.

Blessings,

Lillian

[lish1936]

I would like to post a caveat here regarding my statement about the Anti-Christ=Satan. I don't want to leave the impression that Satan IS the Anti-Christ, but for purposes of illustration, The Anti-Christ is the "Son" of Satan, and thereby has his nature.

Lillian

[Paula22466]

It sounds like they were in the body and then went out from the body and then were teaching lies instead of truth.

Phee, you are exactly right. These "anti-christs" were part of the fellowship (anyone who is not with Christ - acknowledges Him as Messiah, Lord, Savior, is an anti-christ, Matthew 12:30). The text is obviously explaining to believers how to account for those who leave the fellowship (they were never one of us). These anti-christs said they were believers, may have looked and talked and acted like believers outwardly but because they left, we can know they were not true believers, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. Their leaving christianity gives clear evidence of their false faith. This is still happening in the church today. God allows these people to come into our churches, I know some of them, they claim to be Christians but do not acknowledge certain core truths, like the deity of Christ or the trinity. Look at Mormons, they are the same way. Mormons broke away from us because they are not one of us. And it's not only the false teachers who come into the church and end up leaving, there are those who get deceived by the false teachers. How many people do we know who at one time seemed like genuine Christians but were swept away by false doctrines? The list goes on and on...these are also the people John is accounting for. The members of the fellowship were obviously asking, "Bob was such a good man, a godly Sunday School teacher, Jane was such a lovely woman, did the church bulletin every week. How could they leave?" Well John is answering..."they left because they were never one of us." They were never an actual convert. They never loved Christ and devoted their lives to Him nor did His Spirit take up residence in their heart. No matter how it looked on the outside, these people never knew Him. It's the same with all people who say they were once believers and now aren't...the truth is, they never were. Hebrews 3:14 - genuine converts remain steadfast.

[lish1936]

according to 1 John 2:19 - those who leave the faith were never partakers of the faith

The parable of the Prodigal Son does not support your interpretation of 1 John 2:19. You leave no room for forgiveness and restoration.

Those who leave often come back and then we know they were once partakers of the faith; thus the principle of the Prodigal Son.

So we cannot judge when former Sunday school teachers, ministers, etc. leave the faith, (unless they publicly deny the deity of Christ) whether they were once partakers and now prodigals, or against Christ and simply pretending. If the latter is the case, we can credibly say they were always against Christ - always pretending - and will continue to be against Him.

Personal testimony of one who loved the Lord and left. He was a once partaker, became prodigal, but was never one of those referred to in 1John 2:19

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?134194- ... o-the-Lord

"I want to share my coming back to Jesus in 2008, after over 20 years of being away.
Jesus found me after all this time. He never gave up on me."

Blessings,

Lillian

[NetChaplain]

Either one is saved or not. Saved can only mean one thing; if it's not eternal secured assurance in Christ it's nothing.

[lish1936]

Either one is saved or not. Saved can only mean one thing; if it's not eternal secured assurance in Christ it's nothing.

Yes. God sees us through the righteousness of His Son, not through our works of righteousness or unrighteousness that we have done or do.

Even when we stray, the steadfast love of God remains because our security is in Christ. That is not to espouse the idea of cheap Grace, but if the Old Testament teaches us anything, it teaches us about forgiving Grace, enduring Love and unfathomable Mercy.

I love what someone wrote on another thread:

"There are three rules for Biblical interpretation:
1. Context
2. Context
3. Context
Through the lens of the Gospel, even the confusing parts of the OT make perfect sense."

And I would add that the opposite is true: Through the lens of the OT, we see more clearly what the NT is all about. In light of our previous discussion, God's chosen people did not always remain steadfast. But during those times of apostasy, He never abandonned them...punished, but never abandonned.

Lillian

[NetChaplain]

Hi Lish - Nice reply and thanks! God be blessed!