Once Saved Always Saved?

[eaglelion]

Hi -

Last week I had a spirited discussion with a dear Christian friend of mine about the subject topic.
We lovingly disagree on the issue. Also, there is a topic post here in "Theology Discussion and Chat" that is "Tongues." That same dear friend of mine attends a church where they don't support speaking in tongues.

A July 29, 2011, post on my blog is the topic "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED?" It received numerous comments.

After our discussion this week, my friend and I are inclined to probe deeper into the matter.

What are your thoughts, please?

For those who are inclined, here's the link to the post done in July 2011 http://lioneaglesoar.blogspot.com/2011/ ... saved.html

Also, here's the link relative to speaking in tongues http://lioneaglesoar.blogspot.com/2011/ ... ngues.html

[jo555]

oops, posted twice by accident.

[jo555]

When I think of some of these doctrines that we have yet to fully agree on (once saved, always saved, free will, etc) I wonder if maybe it is one of those things that may remain a mystery for now.

And I love to dig...I just feel with some of these there's too much evidence on both sides of the spectrum. Generally when this occurs I find it is a alignment issue, or putting the piece of the puzzle in the right place. I love a good puzzle so that stuff generally has a huge appeal to me, but I also know that God doesn't just give me his knowledge or revelation for my entertainment and sense of accomplishment...my heart needs to be aligned with his.

Maybe that is why I just won't fully get some of it...can't find how those pieces fit with that sense of surety, but that's me. I know the Word does not contradict itself, but maybe I need help leaning on Him.

I really do not like it when we are told to forget something that is a burden upon our hearts because it is just a waste of time and a distraction brought on by the enemy...and of course it can be, but why don't we take our hearts to the Lord and let Him tell us that, or birth his reply via his Spirit with our labor pains. So, please don't take this as that. If you feel you need to pursue, don't let me stop you and know that is not what I am looking to do.

I'm just looking to relay what I have come to peace with regarding some of these issues. Maybe in the future I will have an assurety on the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. For now this is where I stand:

In my heart I feel that if one has truly been saved one would always be saved because I just cannot phanthom a truly saved heart truly being separated from the Lord. From what I know of scripture, there appears to be room for error in what I feel at heart. The stand I take is not to look to worry about it but continue to look to Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith, knowing in Him my relationship with Father through his Spirit is secure.

Don't know if that helps, but just sharing where I am there.

A scripture that came to mind just now on how I feel on this is what Jesus told Peter when Peter asked Him who would betray Him. Jesus said something to the effect of is He wished Him to remain a very long time, what was that to Him. Peter was to follow Him.

Fits? God knows? Just what came to me now.

[jo555]

And I may find, with the Lord, more assurety "doctrinally" with what may be offered on this thread. For now I have an assurety in my heart that I am his and no one can snatch me from his grip. He really loves me, even though I can be so mean when I don't get my way. I call myself his spoiled child that can be quite rotten apple when the mood hits me...yuck! But I'm precious because I'm his.

Maybe that was more important...maybe that is the line of order that was to take place in my life.

Maybe the other will come with time...as of now I don't have much to share doctrinally on this so I will be a student prayerfully considering what's offered.

[mikeedwards]

I believe you cannot lose it by sinning or it is not grace. But I do believe you can freely choose to abandon the faith. So if you see a person blatantly living in sin and not being bothered by it while claiming to be saved. The truth may be that they were never saved in the first place. But I want to approach this from another angle that God has placed strongly on my heart.

For me I came to a point where I realized that if I am saved I am saved by Gods grace alone. I either believe Gods Word or I do not. If I am not saved there is nothing I can do about it since I am saved by grace. It is up to God not me so there is nothing I can do to change the fact. If I do try and change it by works then according to Paul I am severed from the grace of Christ. Gal 5:4 Grace and works are contradictory so it cannot be both. Rom 11:6 But do I believe God when He tells me that I am saved by grace and not by works? Eph 2:8-9 Yes I do! Not because of anything that is in me or anything that I have done but because of Him and who He is.

My point is I too used to question my salvation. I think that this is what this question is all about. I decided that if I am not saved, there is nothing I can do about it as stated above. So the least I can do is tell others so they might be saved. Ironically I realized later that maybe, finally, thankfully, I have somewhat forgotten about myself. Isn't that what scripture tells me to do?


Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
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Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it.
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Luke 9:24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
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Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
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John 12:25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

So for me this question is really about a persons own insecurity about their salvation. They may point to others and claim their concern for them. But when they do this it is based on something they see in the other persons life that they would never do. What they are doing is judging by comparing their individual righteousness with someone elses. They are not using grace and this is exactly what non-believers do. They look around and conclude that they are good enough for God because they have not done what those people do. We can always find a lower common denominator. The problem, with this is that the Bible says we will be judged by the same standard that we use to judge.

Matt 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

I needed to be judged by grace or I am not saved at all. Worrying about our own salvation is a trick from satan to keep us bound up and unusable or at least very limited. If I am saved it is by Gods grace period.

Lord help us to forget about ourselves and believe your word. Lord gives us the boldness to tell others no matter what.

God Bless, Mike

[cliffordsr]

This discussion about eternal security to me is so without any merit. I cannot understand how a redeemed soul could ever think their salvation could be lost. When we sin and are disobedient to our Lord Jesus it never changes who He is (He is Eternal; from everlasting to everlasting; unchangable) but we break our fellowship with Him and cannot sense His nearness to us because He cannot fellowship with unrepentant sin. If you have been born to an earthly Father and Mother you are always their child and nothing can break or change that reality. Such is the case with the new birth. You do not choose to belong to Christ, He chooses to make you His. I pray for every person still doubting John 10:27-30. When once you receive salvation you receive Christ internally and He will work in you to do according to His good will.

[pathlightfinder]

This can indeed be a touchy subject for some. I have an article that addresses it on my own website because of that. We can, of our own freewill, accept Jesus as our Lord. Since this is true there is a question to consider. Do we then lose our freewill or can we not still reject Him?

Can we lose our salvation? Perhaps a better question is "can we throw it away".

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

[colin nielsen]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Pretty self explanatory to me. The people Jesus was talking about have no doubts that they are saved. To me it speaks of people who are probably pretty high up in the church since they are doing amazing things. They are in for a very rude shock.
Yes. We are saved by Grace and Grace alone. But Faith without works is dead faith. Works are not a prerequisite for salvation but you can bet your bottom dollar that they are an indication that the miracle of second birth has indeed occurs in our lives. I don't care what you say about yourself. Let me see how you live and the choices you make. Then I'll be in a position to see.

[Paula22466]

According to Ephesians 1:4-5, God, “Chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.” God has predestined Christians to be adopted as His own children through His Son Jesus Christ. He does this, “because of His great love” (Ephesians 2:4) and so, “He might show the surpassing riches of His grace” (Ephesians 2:7). Also, the Bible is explicit that Christians have done nothing to earn this salvation, it’s purely a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9) and God prepared all of this in advance (Ephesians 2:10). God not only predestined the salvation of Christians, but the good works that would be done by them (Ephesians 2:10) which reveals how God not only gives initial salvation, but remains active in the believer’s life, changing and transforming them from the inside out. To say all of this could be lost, or thrown away, would be the equivalent of saying God must not have chosen the right people, or maybe His plan for their life failed, but of course neither of these options are possible for God because He always completes what He begins (Romans 11:29)(John 6:37-39).

If the Bible makes it abundantly clear that receiving salvation is not about the receiver, but about God’s abundant grace, it should be just as clear that keeping salvation is neither about the receiver. Although the Bible continually urges Christians to persevere in their faith, the assumption should not be made that that perseverance is solely on the shoulders of the believer, especially since the Bible states it is not. Hebrews 12:2 says it is Jesus who is not only the author of faith but also the perfecter, and Philippians 2:13 says, “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Jesus is said to constantly be interceding for His saints (Hebrews 7:25) and through Him they have an advocate with the Father (I John 2:1). The same God who calls and saves His children will also fully establish them (1 Peter 5:10).

God wants Christians to be confident in their salvation and to not live in fear of losing it, so much so that He sends His Holy Spirit to take up residence in their heart and is given as a guarantee, a pledge, or a deposit of their salvation, and His Spirit “seals” them in Christ (Ephesians 1:13-14). A deposit is a partial payment given to guarantee the full payment is coming. The Holy Spirit is God’s deposit as a guarantee to all who are in Christ, it guarantees He will keep His promises and bring His children through this temporary life and on to eternity with Him forever, (Romans 8:16-17) just as the Apostle Paul claimed in 2 Timothy 4:18. Although believers receive the Holy Spirit the minute they believe and trust in Christ’s atoning work, (Romans 8:9) the full consummation of their redemption will only be achieved when Jesus receives full possession of His own. The seal of the Spirit in the Christian signifies they belong to God and He has authority over their life.

Having shown how God sovereignly and freely gives salvation “before the creation of the world,” and aides the Christian in living out that salvation by working in them and sealing them with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit, the Bible continues this promise all the way to the very end in the book of Revelation.

In Revelation 3:5, and other places in scripture, there is something written about called “The book of Life,” which is a figurative name of a sort of record God keeps of Christ followers (Luke 10:20) (Philippians 4:3). In Revelation 13:8 the Bible tells us the names of these believers have been “written from the foundation of the world,” which gives Christians every reason to believe and rejoice that God, who called and saved them, will bring them safely into His presence for all of eternity (Romans 8:29-30) and nothing will be able to separate them from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus the Lord (Romans 8:37-39).

[pathlightfinder]

Paula, I will have to respectfully disagree on several points.
You stated, "To say all of this could be lost, or thrown away, would be the equivalent of saying God must not have chosen the right people, or maybe His plan for their life failed,".
By this reasoning there is no free will; and, there is no need to spread the Gospel because any that are to be saved are already saved anyway; and, there is no reason to love or obey because either you are saved or damned no matter what you do. Saying God gave us freewill is not saying He chose wrong - it means we can.
You then continued, "but of course neither of these options are possible for God because He always completes what He begins (Romans 11:29)(John 6:37-39)." The are a number of times that God allowed man to change His mind in the Old Testament. If you need I will cite some for you in a later post.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

PS - https://thepathtolight.com/Obedience_and_Salvation.html

[Paula22466]

By this reasoning there is no free will; and, there is no need to spread the Gospel because any that are to be saved are already saved anyway; and, there is no reason to love or obey because either you are saved or damned no matter what you do. Saying God gave us freewill is not saying He chose wrong - it means we can.

Wayne, I am confused. Are you arguing with me or the Bible? Because the Bible is clear that all salvation is based on the election by God in Christ, from eternity.

Nowhere in my post will you find me saying "there is no free will," those who are elect will always love and obey (thought not perfectly and at different speeds of sanctification) because they choose to. Those who reject Christ, in the same manner, do so out of choice.

Of course there is great need to spread the gospel, because it is the means God has chosen to save. Not to mention, He commanded that we do so.

In Sisterly Love,
Paula

[jo555]

As I believe I've stated here before, I lean towards not losing it, but not fully convinced as scriptures do seem to indicate one can throw it way, but it also does speak of God's faithfulness in keeping us. Eventually, one day I would like to dive back into the scripturally study of this, as time and priorities permit.

I have questions about those that have not been elected to reveal the Lord's glory, and this is where I would like to continue my bible study one day.

My ponderings are in the direction of knowing God is going to complete his work in those chosen from the beginning to reveal his glory to the nations, and that they will see his light and come (correct me if you think I am off as I am going by memory). So, I'm pondering the destiny of those not chosen from the beginning to reveal his glory. Obviously, any coming to the Lord is a work by Him . . . but wondering if this "fervently determined keeping", is more of something with those chosen from the beginning to reveal his goodness and glory. Not sure if I expressed what I wanted to as my ponderings go, but that is basically it.

That said, and somewhat off topic, I was telling someone the other day that I really began to understand grace (though God knows how deeply I do get it), when I began to undersand the election process for what the Lord is looking to do on a larger scale. I feel it is relevant to understanding grace. At least for me it was.

Thanks.

[jo555]

And, I may have said this before, but being lazy and not checking due to time restraints.

Basically, I picture God's will and timing as a corporate thing. One can picture it as a large circle. Within that circle is man's freewill. Freewill cannot be exercised outside of God's will, but within it.

God's cirlce can also be pictured as a big time clock (in regards to timing). Within that circle is man's personal timeclock. When God says it's time, within the circle things will conform to his
time . . . Other times he allows our clocks to tick by our choices.

Anyway, must be off to parents.

Thanks. I'll look to check next time so I don't repeat myself. Even so, I think this is worth repeating. Sometimes a visual helps.

[pathlightfinder]

Paula,
You stated, "Wayne, I am confused. Are you arguing with me or the Bible?"
First let me begin by asking. Is anyone that disagrees with you arguing? Can you not debate.
Second, you state, "Because the Bible is clear that all salvation is based on the election by God in Christ, from eternity." I beg to differ quite strongly. I would posit the Bible is quite clear that salvation is based on the saving Grace received by belief in Christ.
I am not arguing with you or the Bible - my view is different than yours. Just as when you earlier stated, "but of course neither of these options are possible for God because He always completes what He begins", which I posited the OT refutes ( and you did not respond to), you seem to tend to imply only your view is Biblical. Differences of opinion can and do exist among believers.
However, this thread is about the security of salvation, not predestination - if you would care to start that thread elsewhere I would be more than willing to discuss it with you.

In Brotherly Love,

Wayne

[Paula22466]

Paula,
First let me begin by asking. Is anyone that disagrees with you arguing? Can you not debate.

Wayne, I use the word "argue" in this sense: "Give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view." So, yes, I can debate.

I beg to differ quite strongly. I would posit the Bible is quite clear that salvation is based on the saving Grace received by belief in Christ.

Yes, but the belief comes from God. Unless you think dead men can believe.

I am not arguing with you or the Bible - my view is different than yours. Just as when you earlier stated, "but of course neither of these options are possible for God because He always completes what He begins", which I posited the OT refutes ( and you did not respond to),

I try not to respond to condescending remarks, especially when they are followed by "in brotherly love." Please do not assume I need you to point out the obvious and we will get along swimmingly.

you seem to tend to imply only your view is Biblical. Differences of opinion can and do exist among believers.

Once again (stating the obvious). However, in this case, only my view (the Bible's view) is biblical.

However, this thread is about the security of salvation, not predestination - if you would care to start that thread elsewhere I would be more than willing to discuss it with you.

Maybe I will have time. We'll see.