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Total Depravity

For those who like to discuss and debate theology. This is a forum for people who enjoy strong and lively debate with people who may not be likeminded. Participants are requested to always treat other opinions with respect.

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Paula22466
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Total Depravity

Postby Paula22466 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:28 pm

Some time ago a few people asked me to give a more detailed explanation of Calvin's TULIP. I don't know if those people are still around or not but I seem to have a little free time lately so I'm going to attempt it. I'll go slow and post when I can. Please feel free to jump in with your Calvinist-hating comments, or not :)

TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Total depravity teaches that all men are born tainted by sin since the fall. It doesn't mean every man is as totally sinful as they could be, but everyone is sinful. Some texts that support this are:
Isaiah 64:6
Jeremiah 17:9
Ephesians 2:1-5

I'll say more about Total Depravity later....
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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tomoral
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Re: Total Depravity

Postby tomoral » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:39 pm

I thought we were all born in sin since the beginning of time, that why Jesus came to save the world from sin.
God Bless the beasts and the children
Give them shelter from the storms.
Children are our tomorrow
Keep them daily from the sorrow
Of the beasts in life

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Paula22466
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Re: Total Depravity

Postby Paula22466 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:43 pm

Tomoral - yes, "since the beginning of time," or since the first sin of Adam, man has inherited the sinful nature (Romans 5:12). Because all men are born sinful (or totally depraved) and completely unable to come to God, God determined to send Christ, first to live a perfect life, and second to die a perfect sacrifice.

Romans 3:9-18 spells out just how rebellious mankind is. Consider this:

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

None is righteous, no, not one;

no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one


The "seeker sensitive" movement is a farce since no one seeks for God. Only believers seek God. Unbelievers may think they are seeking God but they are really seeking an idol. They want something, or someone, that will give them the benefits of knowing God without actually submitting to His sovereign authority.

No one does good, no one is capable of doing good, apart from God. Someone may be "religious," meaning they go to church weekly, give to the poor, or visit the ill, but even these things are not "good," because they are not coming from a heart that is being compelled by the Holy Spirit with a sincere desire to please God and serve mankind. Whatever the motive was for our good deeds, pre-conversion, it did not stem from faith in God (Romans 14:23).

The Bible says, For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.(Romans 8:7-8).

"In the flesh" is referring to what we were before we were "in the Spirit" (Romans 8:9). Before Christ's salvation, we were so depraved that we "indeed cannot," submit to God, and in truth, we were hostile to God and hated His light (John 3:20).
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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Re: Total Depravity

Postby jo555 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:40 am

I also have more free time on my hands, guess I'm back.

First, bravo. :wink:

Second, I agree that all men are born into sin. Yet, I always thought total depravity meant without any light.

What is seeker sensitive movement?
People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord looks upon the heart - Proverbs

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Re: Total Depravity

Postby jo555 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:28 pm

Still unsure what is meant by seeker sensitive. And not trying to rush you Paula. I just find myself with some extra time and feeling chatty, so . . . going by what you posted, will share this, as I see it.


Our "Rubber to Road" Experience and our

Equippings for Priestly Service


John 3:5-8
Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”



There is great benefit in understanding the difference between the life of the Spirit, the human experience, where they meet, and how they function. In this article we will do some exploring into this wonderful and important area.

We will begin by exploring the differences between the natural and Spiritual. In the above verses Jesus makes it clear that humans cannot produce life that comes from his Spirit. Just like an apple tree cannot produce oranges. A tree will only produce life of its kind. The contrast between the natural life and the Spiritual life is seen in many scriptures in the bible. The book of Galatians uses the example of Ishmael and Isaac. We know that Ishmael represents the natural, or our human efforts to bring about the promises of God. In contrast, Isaac represents God doing it. Man's role is to take God at his Word and believe He will accomplish what He has spoken. It is apparent that God rejects man's effort at accomplishing what only He can do. As we understand the nature of following our own ways and the results of our own efforts, we can clearly see why.

So what of the believer's human experience? Understanding our humanity shows us: our limitations and weaknesses so that it is apparent the glory being displayed through us is from God (2 Cor. 4); the futility of our wisdom and ways (1 Cor. 1:18-30); it also shows us that of ourselves we are no better than our fellowman and helps us relate to him (Isaiah 64, Romans 3).

When the Spirit is at work it can be a very fast experience. Things happen quickly and effectively. I'm sure others have experienced God mightily at work where He came in and changed the atmosphere in a quick and powerful way.

By contrast, the slower journey, or walking out our humanity, helps us become better acquainted with ourselves. God will also allow our humanity to play out so we can relate to our fellowman and enter into our roles as a royal priesthood. Instead of throwing stones, we intercede and become extensions of him to humanity.

The human experience can help bridge the gap between God and man through Christ. He's the bridge, the High Priest, and the Mediator, although He does also work through us as his body as we are found in Him.

We can also better understand why God would choose to allow our humanity to run its course when we realize that God intends to display his glory through us and unite us in his love in Jesus. Walking it out can be a tool God uses to break up the hard ground of our hearts.

In summary our "rubber to road" experience is a beneficial and viable part of what God is looking to accomplish in Jesus and through his body. In this way his Spirit does sweep humanity before the throne of God.


Zechariah 4:6
Then he said to me, “This is what the Lord says to Zerubbabel: It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.


References: Exodus 28, Exodus 39, Hebrews 2:14-18, Hebrews 4:14-16, Hebrews 5:1-4, Hebrews 5:7-10

~~~And I believe it is important to understand that Jesus first and foremost was in tune with the heart of God, wanting his will to be done, for He was Father in the flesh.
People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord looks upon the heart - Proverbs

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Re: Total Depravity

Postby Paula22466 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:21 pm

jo555 wrote:I also have more free time on my hands, guess I'm back.

First, bravo. :wink:

Second, I agree that all men are born into sin. Yet, I always thought total depravity meant without any light.

What is seeker sensitive movement?

Hi Jo, sorry for the long delay. Total depravity, according to the reformed view, means men are totally dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1). Not partially dead or even 99% dead. The "total" in total depravity is 100% alienation from God. Not sure what you mean by "without any light."

The "seeker sensitive" movement is just a formula, if you will, some church leaders are using to get more people in the church. The philosophy behind the movement is that of, "build it and they will come." So they are building churches, and programs, and liturgy around what they believe will get people in the door, because people are "seeking God," they say. However, according to the Bible, no one seeks God until after conversion (Romans 3:11).
Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. - Author Unknown

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Re: Total Depravity

Postby jo555 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:57 pm

Paula22466 wrote:
jo555 wrote:I also have more free time on my hands, guess I'm back.

First, bravo. :wink:

Second, I agree that all men are born into sin. Yet, I always thought total depravity meant without any light.

What is seeker sensitive movement?

Hi Jo, sorry for the long delay. Total depravity, according to the reformed view, means men are totally dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1). Not partially dead or even 99% dead. The "total" in total depravity is 100% alienation from God. Not sure what you mean by "without any light."

The "seeker sensitive" movement is just a formula, if you will, some church leaders are using to get more people in the church. The philosophy behind the movement is that of, "build it and they will come." So they are building churches, and programs, and liturgy around what they believe will get people in the door, because people are "seeking God," they say. However, according to the Bible, no one seeks God until after conversion (Romans 3:11).


Agreed Paula.

Do you think they mean that God is at work in their lives, and in that sense drawing them?

Either way, I believe when we get back to simplicity (simplicity of the gospel in Christ), as foolish as that may seem these days (as if God doesn't use foolishness), the Holy Spirit will be at work drawing them in as He sees fit.

What I meant is that I do not believe man is without any light. Even the law is a glimmer of light, revealing our wretchedness. But yes, you cannot get apples from a crab apple tree. :wink:

You cannot get fruits unto righteousness from a root that only gives fruits unto death because it is dead unto God and alive unto sin.
People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord looks upon the heart - Proverbs


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