Discouraged and Frustrated

[tomoral]

One more thing about those little yellow boxes. It always amazes me when people come in who have never won a place in the top five and start writing what they think would make the piece better on member's who have won many ribbons and HC's and EC's. That's why I don't leave negative remarks on anyone's writings because I know I am not qualified to do so. When I win a couple times in level 4 (if I ever get there) then I might tell someone else what I what I think would make their writing better. Until then, I will point out the good and leave the constructive criticism to the pros.

I know this is gonna bring some make some people angry but it had to be said. Those boxes are permanent, so before anyone leaves a negative comment they should think about that. I don't mind for myself, it doesnt really matter, but others do.

[Shann]

I wish there was a way to know who wants what. I feel a personal duty to be as honest as possible because if I say I love it on every story, then how does someone know when I really mean it. I also encourage even newbies to leave construction (which is so different from negative comments)comments because even though they may be new to writing, they likely have been reading for many years and know what they like or what doesn't work. I also suggest that they leave at least two positive comments for each constructive one. The whole point of the challenge is to get better at writing, if someone doesn't guide us how will we ever learn to get better?

The fact that you think people will get angry and that it bothers people that those not in Masters leave advice makes me wonder if I should not leave comments at all anymore. As long as the comments come from good intentions, why would it matter what level writer they are?

I still think we should ask everyone to make a note on the bottom that says Yes please leave red ink or No please only leave positive remarks.

[Deb Porter]

The fact that you think people will get angry and that it bothers people that those not in Masters leave advice makes me wonder if I should not leave comments at all anymore. As long as the comments come from good intentions, why would it matter what level writer they are?

This bothers me enormously (not you, Shann, but the fact that this is happening). Not everyone is a skilled writer, but everyone is a reader. Readers have as much right to give input into what they thought of an article. So taking the writer feedback angle out of the equation, a writer still needs to be able to cope with feedback from readers -- and believe me, a reader can be completely honest in their critique because they aren't worried about getting retribution feedback on their own writing.

Best advice, always, regarding the receiving of critique: Eat the meat; spit out the bones.

Regardless of who leaves the feedback, weigh it. Even a beginner can give input regarding their level of enjoyment of a piece, and that should be respected. Whether the author chooses to accept it or not is completely up to them (bearing in mind that no one can please everyone all the time).

If people can't handle honest feedback, given with kindness here, then they will be eaten alive if they ever publish a book and get reader critique somewhere like Goodreads or Amazon.

I still think we should ask everyone to make a note on the bottom that says Yes please leave red ink or No please only leave positive remarks.

We can ask, like we ask people to note if something is a true story, but that doesn't mean they are going to do it. LOL. That's why I hope more people will include that request when they throw bricks.

(But, yes please ... if you want to post "Red Ink Welcome" on the bottom of your entry, go for it. When other people see it, they may do the same next time.)

Love, Deb

[tomoral]

Dear Shann, when I said leave it to the pros, I meant you and Lish, and so many others on this site, and when I said level 4, I was speaking for myself. I just hate to see comments, and I am not speaking of any comments anyone has left on my articles, but on others telling what they thought the writer should have done. It just bothers me.

I have always taken your comments and made myself write better with them. Same goes for Lish and others who have pointed out what was wrong, because I drew from your experience. Experience that I don't have. But when I see a comment on someone's else's excellent article that is done by an inexperienced writer pointing out what is wrong it just makes me mad. That was my point and maybe I am all wrong but that's how I feel.

Please forgive.

[lish1936]

I also think a little wisdom goes a long way.

Whenever I read an article on ANY level that seems ripe for an EC, I try not to comment about one misspelled word or a missing comma. Very often, a missing punctuation mark is lost in the submission process. And I can't tell you how many misspelled words and absent punctuation marks I've noticed in comments within those yellow boxes (including comments I've written), from those who are commenting on missing ...Yep, you're right!

On the other hand, there are some articles that scream out for help, usually in the lower levels, and from my point of view, are not "blue ribbon" ready (sometimes I'm wrong - another LOL). I'm not even sure my punctuation is correct with that last sentence.

My point is this. I may take a bit more liberty pointing out recurrent errors and construction issues because I know it's a pattern that the writer may need help with. Even so, it does help to broadcast your preference - red ink or no red ink.

I'm not being modest here, there are SO many better writers than I am in Level 4 ( I stink at writng really stellar fiction). I'm there because the rules don't allow otherwise. But thanks for your kind words.

Please feel free to critique this post. Red ink is fine.

Blessings,

Lillian

[Come forth]

One more thing about those little yellow boxes. It always amazes me when people come in who have never won a place in the top five and start writing what they think would make the piece better on member's who have won many ribbons and HC's and EC's.

But when I see a comment on someone's else's excellent article that is done by an inexperienced writer pointing out what is wrong it just makes me mad.

I want to say as gently as I can that this really concerns me.

I understand that for yourself, to post comments on those who are better writers than yourself is intimidating; but to get bothered when someone else makes comments is, for me, counter productive to the entire purpose of this site.

Once again, I find myself wondering if the true purpose of the site is to improve our writing skills or to be a mutual admiration society enjoying a social gathering. Following the guidelines above, one should never make a comment on anyone's writing who is in a level above you or unless you have been in the top five at least once. And is that the top five over all or the top five in your level?

I honestly believe, Tomoral, that you have far more ability to help others than you think. Your writing has improved out of site and I know that I made comments that you said you appreciated; I have never placed as a winner even in the beginners level. And what you are now saying is that I have no rights to give what I believe is honest feedback.

Well, that's okay; because I don't anymore.

I understand that some have said there have been some really negative, hard to take comments made by some (I've actually been included in that list - but I believe incorrectly) and I have even had one impossible to understand comment myself. But Deb's point about being here to receive critiques and the need to develop a thick hide is so true.

I also agree with Lish's comment that correction of petty things like a misplaced comma can sometimes seem funny. But then again, my placing of commas, and ; ! and forgetting ? is so bad that I would appreciate the comments.

I know I'm overboard on this, but come on guys and gals, we are here to improve and if someone makes a bad comment you have the right to ignore it. It may grate for a little while, but that rough stone just helped make you, and your writing, a little smoother.

Blessings, Graham

P.S. This will be my last comment on this issue either here or anywhere else. I have stopped leaving feedback and can not see myself ever starting again while this mentality permeates the site; so therefore I forfeit the right to comment on this further.

[tomoral]

All points taken here, and I also, will not comment further on this matter. I defend my statement but I should have not posted it. Sorry to any and all I may have offended.

[Shann]

No Lynn, please don't feel like you shouldn't have posted it. An honest adult conversation is needed so we can understand it all. You have as much of a right to express your opinion as I do. It's obviously making people think and that is a good thing. We constantly need to find ways to boost people and help them become better writers better critics and better Christians. Please don't feel that anything I have said was meant as an attack on you because I didn't mean it that way at all.

I do seriously worry about what I should leave as comments. I point out typos and errors usually because I feel the author might want to, or should take their story and try submitting it elsewhere. I point out trivial things so they can fix it if they are aware.

I do know what you mean about sometimes seeing a comment that makes me shiver because it didn't feel like it was the kindest way to say it.

Sometimes a person may need to know that they are coming off as harsh. I know that touches a raw nerve with Graham and that hurts my heart too and I do wish he would reconsider his decision not to leave constructive comments.

Personally, I pray before I leave a comment and sometimes I hear God say quite clearly, " say only good things on this one." I try to listen to his voice. There have been times when I left a comment and it has offended the person enough for them to respond in a very nasty way to me. I've wondered did I not hear God say no on that one? But thinking about it, I believe God had plans that I don't know about and uses my comments that hurt someone for a far greater purpose. I have to believe he has faith in me that I can handle the backlash. Sometimes I question him and think he way overestimated me because there have been three desperate times when someone attacked me in a vicious and cruel way and I almost lost it and fell into a serious depression and became self-destructive.

Two of the attacks were from a PM and one in a very public way. I had cried for days nonstop to the point where I literally became physically ill. The last time, my husband was trying to get me to leave the site. In his eyes it wasn't worth it. I almost did leave but just as I was prepared to make that decision, God sent me the comfort and reassurance I needed.

I do feel horrible to know that I am the reason people have left the site and though I believe that God had a reason, it still makes me question myself.

When I feel someone has made a too harsh comment, I will PM the writer to see if they have been hurt by the person. I don't think anyone has ever said the comment was so bad that they couldn't handle it. They may not agree with it, but as long as they aren't too discouraged, I'm okay with it. We may talk about the merit of the comment and I have given why I would agree and give an example of how to make it better. If I don't agree then I'll tell the person that too.

If someone ever tells me a comment has been painful then I have contacted the person before and just give them a heads up. I know most of the people well enough that I know if the person would feel bad and want to apologize for accidentally hurting someone.

There is definitely differences in men and women. I remember when my son was asked to umpire a girl's softball game. He had umped for boys for several years. Well he used the same harsh voice he needed to use on the boys for the girls. As soon as the first inning was over I sprinted to the field and told him to tone it down or just a simple strike call would have the girls in tears. If, however, he used a soft tone with the boys, they would have walked all over him.

I guess I'm saying we need to be there and help each other as God calls us to. We need to listen to his voice. If we see a comment that appears too harsh or wrong, then we should either state our own opinion in a nice way. I've seen comments where someone would say they didn't like the ending and I just made the comment that I loved the ending because life isn't always happy endings. So just know that a comment is usually a personal opinion.

I've also seen comments where someone might say you always should capitalize pronouns when He is Jesus. There isn't a rule that states that and the thing that matters is you have to be consistent. So I'll leave a comment saying just that.

I know this is long winded and that feelings have been hurt. I deeply apologize for my part in any of that. I hope in time God will heal the pain, he has done that for me. Even now it still stings when I think that people have left the site because of me, but then I hear Jesus whisper that he hung on the cross in agony for me--so who am I to complain about my hurt feelings? If God can take that and use it for his glory, I guess I can handle the pain and darkness because I know he is using that situation for something far bigger than me.

I do love and respect every single person who has commented. Remember we are a family and sometimes families lash out at each other, but if any member of the family is in need we all will pull together.

[RedBaron]

When I first started here, I was intimidated about leaving feedback in the Challenge, because I thought they were "better than me." Then one day I was convicted that I shouldn't be. I'm just as qualified as anyone else here to let someone know what I think about their writing, in a loving way, because I've been reading since I was 4. Just because someone is in a higher/lower level, doesn't make them a better/worse writer than anyone else. They just may have been in the challenge longer, happened to rise faster, etc.

So one day, I just dove in with both feet and left feedback on EVERY entry, every single one. Eventually, the challenge grew too large and life go too busy. It got to the point that I haven't even been able to enter regularly in ages, after entering every single week, and only missing on the weeks I judged - back when we all took turns judging.

I learned more reading and commenting on all of them than I did on the comments I got on my own work. It made me think critically about what worked and didn't, and then I could try to apply those ideas to my own work.

[tomoral]

Okay, I know I said I wouldn't comment further but Shann gave me courage for one last thought.

Looking at it from another angle.

Let's say I came in here a year ago, green as a turnip leaf,(which I was, and in many ways, still am) and read an article by, let's just say for example. Lish, who is an established, well respected, excellent writer. Let's say I went in there in one of those little yellow boxes and proceeded to tell her what I thought would make her article better. I don't expect anyone would think I had any right to do that. And remember, those little boxes are permanent.

As far as helping anyone goes, I would be happy to tell anyone who asks, what works for me. Writing and rewriting, and editing and reediting, and maybe a tear or two of frustration until I am so tired I just say "what the heck?" and submit my work. Guessing again and again what might be better, and enjoying every minute of it. So I don't feel confident enough to guess at anyone else's work just yet, and tell them what I think would make theirs better.

I have also asked the help of others on the site from time to time, and I would be more than happy to help anyone who might ask, as long as they bear in mind I am still quite green behind the ears.

Blessings, Lynn

[RedBaron]

The thing is, we never see the things we write the same as anyone else. I've written things that made total sense to me, but I left out things that made it confusing for the reader. That's what I need to know - what didn't work for the reader.

It doesn't matter how green someone is when it comes to writing. If you see something that didn't click for you, the writer needs to know that. That might help them write it better, for the next time.

It's NOT about writing experience, it's about how it comes across to the reader.

[Shann]

That's what I mean when I say it doesn't matter how long you have been writing but how long you have been reading. Shari was able to say it more succinctly.

I give you my example. Noel Mixta is an awesome writer and enjoys puns. He wrote a story using several puns and I just didn't get them, even when I knew what he was saying, it still didn't make sense to me. I left a comment and it appeared I was the only slow one, but it turned out I was the only slow one brave enough to admit it. It turned out to be that I wasn't reading it with an Australian accent! But by mentioning it, it helped Noel realize that the pun didn't translate to everyone. Now when he uses puns, he leaves a key at the bottom.

So though, my remark could have come off the wrong way because Noel knew it came from a good place it helped him while he wrote other things. At least I think it helped him

[lish1936]

P.S. This will be my last comment on this issue either here or anywhere else. I have stopped leaving feedback and can not see myself ever starting again while this mentality per
meates the site; so therefore I forfeit the right to comment on this further.

So sorry Graham about your decision. I think Deb has now made it easier to avoid the pitfalls you encountered early on when leaving comments. Now, if anyone wants constructive comments (red ink), they simply state it at brick throwing time.

Please reconsider leaving comments on the ones who ask for it. Don't grow weary of doing well.

Blessings,

Lillian

[lthomas]

Personally, I like what Deb said: "...a reader is entitled to their opinion." As a writer, the reader is our audience regardless of their writing level. I welcome all critiques. I don't always agree but often see validity in their comments which helps me hone my craft.

Let's see if this analogy works. I want to become a better horseman and over the years I've learned that riding is not just about me, but it is about me and my horse. As much as I want her to respond to me, I've leaned I also need to know how to respond to her. If she doesn't give me cues as to what's working and what's not - then we both lose out. It's a mutual respect kind of thing. We listen, we learn and we grow.

I'm sure there are flaws in the above analogy, and red ink to point them out won't bother me. Multiple points of view I find to be intriguing learning and honing tools. Besides, analogies are not one of my strong suites.

But back to the main thrust of this thread - about how to become a better writer. I've always been told to read. Read those writers who inspire you. Study, experiment with their styles and finally develop your own. And as you do - as a writer - you'll begin to sense on you own what's working and what's not - listen to that voice. And finally when the solicited or unsolicited critiques come you will (as has been pointed out) be able to "chew the meat and spit out the bone."

Loren

[A Nonny Mouse]

Greetings, all.

I'm glad this thread was started. Thanks to the person who started this conversation ball rolling.

I joined FW a long time ago, was faithful to participate for a while, and then stopped because other things stole my time. However, I kept my membership because I believed FW was something I needed to support.

But now I'm back, and I'm trying to participate in the writing challenge every week, though I've already missed a couple of weeks this quarter.

I've progressed back up to Level 3, but even though I'm a writer and a reader, I don't feel qualified to leave criticisms on the articles written by other participants. I just don't see myself as good enough to tell someone else what they should fix, unless it's a blatant spelling issue, or a comma issue. Also, I don't feel I've been an active member long enough to make critiques on others' writing here.

That being said, I would appreciate any and all critiques of my writing. I may disagree with some of the things said. That's okay. They're opinions. If a critique is strong and causes me to shed a tear or two, that's my problem, and not the problem of the person giving the critique. My writing may be my "baby," but I need to grow and improve as a writer. I'm not going to do either as long as everyone says only nice things. Don't get me wrong, the nice words are nice! But I know that's not all that can be said about my writing.

Shann? You need to keep on giving pointers; they're valuable. Graham? You need to keep on giving critique and feedback. You're just as important as everyone else here. Lynn, Lillian, Deb, Jan, other Deb, Colin, Tomoral, Loren, RedBaron, and all the others who have spoken up in this thread, you're all valuable. You're all needed here. I'm just honored to be here and thankful I can take part.

I will try to remember to add the "Please use RED ink" comment when I throw a brick.

Now I'm going to try and figure out something to write for "Tie." I do not have a clue what to do with that.

Blessings to all!